Tavern on the Meta

3:14 AM

@Shadow chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309215/…

@NogShine eh, if you're doing it for the right reasons, haters gonna hate.

3:37 AM

cv-plz meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309219/…

Q: Warn new users question-banned on other sites before they post here on Meta

3:55 AM

0

I propose that new users who are banned from asking questions anywhere else on the network be shown a warning before asking a question here on Meta Stack Exchange. A huge portion of those questions are either users asking about their ban (who should ask on their per-site meta instead) or asking ...

delv-pls 20k+ meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309219/…

@SonicWizard Downvote received. Deleting.

Why is SE so special, that even though there are clashes of 2 (or more) groups, all of them still want to stay on SE while defending their groups and bashing others?

Instead of... creating an independent forum/SE clone

Cause its the resource that's kind of the de-facto, its big enough that it matters, but small enough that it can be pressured

also, if you mean what @NogShine is talking about specifically, its just the cultural clashes in modern india

One great way to prevent people from posting videos taken in one's own establishment onto YouTube: play copyrighted music really loudly so that users' videos will get removed for copyright reasons.

4:29 AM

@SonicWizard why is this question linked to the deleted enemy object pygame???

@HTTPS A comment on the deleted question

5:00 AM

@SmokeDetector gone

@JourneymanGeek Yeah. I am talking about cultural and faith differences.

@NogShine well - it's for the local mods to decide on the best way to deal with it

@JourneymanGeek There are meta posts on how to bring harmony. They are not coming to practice. That's where problem is arising. There are other problems also.

one-more-close-vote-needed meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309215/…

5:55 AM

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309222/…

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309223/…

Those were both reposts of non-negatively-received questions on Stack Overflow

This is getting too confusing. That's it, I'm reopening my survey again.

7:36 AM

(I feel stupid that I didn't get the notification on Charcoal HQ because I wasn't always in there...)

7:58 AM

delv-pls 20K image meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309222/… /cc @ShadowWizard @Bart @JourneymanGeek @Glorfindel (needs 1 more)

8:20 AM

@rene gone

8:43 AM

Got a "nice answer" badge for apologizing on MSO ._."

@HTTPS I'm sorry for you ...

@Magisch what happened to your avatar?

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 4 mins ago, by Magisch

I'm retiring from SE for now. Not sure how permanent that'll be. Also not sure if I'll end up deleting my account or not. It's really hard to stay away from something that was part of your life for so long. Peace out.

Hmm, I hope he is okay.

But maybe it is sometimes better to take a few steps back before you burn yourself out. That could be advice valuable to all of us.

ow

8:59 AM

:(

It is

or to step back before you get burnt out

mumble.. his last relevant activities where in this question

he's so active in fighting serial votings, but if they seem fruitless... well...

The reason is in CHQ btw

yup

9:03 AM

but I don't know if it's related to IPS too, 2 suspended high-rep users, 2 new mods...

considering he's also active on IPS

don't think so

the new mods are something they sorely needed

blame my negativity >_<

I'm not going to comment on the suspensions other than that I'm doubtful poor magisch's reasons are related

another possible cause is that the site of strangeworks.com seems more what you would expect from a cult of Cthulhu worshipers than the site of a company working in the field of quantum computing.

@Derpy it feels very hipster marketing first

9:14 AM

@Derpy In the center of the crystal empire? :D

I͉̱͓̪͇̲n̻͖̥ ̝̲̹̯̖͖t̜͚̯̰he ̭̜̣̮̳̤̫d̫͚̞͉ar͙kn̹̟̼͇e͚̼̟̞̠͕s̪̮̼s̪͇͕͚ͅ ̯̞̬̙p̪̭̺̬̞̥̬a͖s̻̝̲t̫̼̥ ̣t̟͉̣̯͔̯̘he̹̪̠̠̫ ̻̗͓H̹e̠̹̝̣͍͖̥a̜̩̲̝r͇͚̳͈̣̳ͅt̻̤̪̪̲̯
t͚͉͉̟͖h͈̗e̟̪̟ ̩͙͉͔̟̩͍E̹̳̪̠͎͖y̮̮e͉͚ ͔͇̺̮̜͈̰o̝̝̬̻f̱̣̪͎͖̖ ̳̖̰̼̠̗͍S͈͕͉̝͍̲h̲̪͎͖̣a͉͙̩̬̫d̺̩̫̥̥̹̘o̲͇̺w̭̬͖ a̲̺̖̩̩w͚͓͎a̱̥̬̤̯i̠̮̻̟͇͙t͖s.̝̤̺͕̘̬
̪͔̦͕ͅI͈t͖̻s̰̞͎̞͚͚̻ ̟̬ͅg̪͕̠̣̠͖͇az͙͕̹̖̞̥̟e͈̥̜ ̮̗͔̻͕͍̝u͈͔p͇̬on ̬̬t̤h͚͙̪̯̜ͅe̺̦̭̟̼̫ ͉͍̗̼͇T̳̞w͕̞̤i̤͍̣̫n̰̭̦ ̞S͕t͉a͉͚͚̦̖̠r̝s̹̩͕̻͖,
s͍͕͓͍̝̥̼i͉͖̺̥͓͎l͓̹̜̩̻e̙ṋ̠̣̟t̝͔̟͎̤͙̼ḽ̭̝̦͕̰y ̹͕̞͎̯w̱͚͖a̹̲̻i̺̙̦͎ti̲̠͉̼̙̗ͅng͙̺͕̖̖̥̰ ̞̣̪̺͎̖o̲͖f̱̱͎͚̖ ̤th̺͖͚e͎̣ ̙̟̹͍A͙g̱͔e̳ ̞̠͇̹͈̰̣o̹̳̪f̼͚ Au̱͉͓r̻̖u͖͎̟͖m̜̞̦̭͉͖.

.....

(context: the above image was taken from the aforementioned site.)

(I saw similar symbols before. In the Voynich manuscript)

11:36 AM

Hello all.. is calling a moderator spineless rude and should be deleted with red flags?

@NogShine yes. Unless their avatar depicts a spineless creature, then it can be read as a joke, much like people call me a toxic flower.

Given that there are many meanings on the internet, which meaning should we take?

@rene Wait, wasn't "you are Evan" also a possible excuse?

@NogShine whatever the meanings are, saying spineless to a mod is rude.

> How to deal with these elements when they vote down answers/questions that differ from their Anti-Vedic views and who also flag constructive comments? To top this off, a certain spineless user with moderator privileges is passively obliging them. To top this off, a certain spineless user with moderator privileges is passively obliging them.

11:41 AM

@rene nahhh. If that was rude, calling other users "mentally ill" would be offensive, and since my flag were never accepted that must be a nice thing to say

@NogShine bah ... custom flag then, explaining the passive aggresive tone might be a pattern to be looked into.

@rene Mods took it as personal. The users also flagged as rude. Mods do not agree to clear the flags.

@Derpy publicly diagnosing users with all kind of medical terms is rude in my book.

@rene Calling a mod weak is rude?

@NogShine well, I'm not a mod and that can differ per site I imagine. I can only say that I would mark the flag as helpful as I think it is rude.

11:45 AM

@rene "Be Nice" is different for different sites?

@rene I was thinking the same, but evidence points to the both of us being wrong.

@NogShine It is certainly not nice

@NogShine be nice can be contextual, yes even change over time. What was allowed 6 years ago is rude now, maybe driven by opinions of outsiders, still.

E.P.

Hey folks, if you have >25k rep somewhere, can you have a look at your site analytics page? the Physics one is broken

@E.P. see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/308966/…

E.P.

@rene hmmmmm. Indeed.

thanks

11:55 AM

np

It even has a bounty :)

12:16 PM

Really, I think that site needs CM intervention. Like, put the meta on timeout for 1 week

@HTTPS I can't disagree.

@HTTPS Punish everyone! And then, after a week the actual offenders will just continue in their old ways.

sorry to have to say that, but that approach fits pretty well with the "reduce drama even if that does not solve the underlying problem" vision SE too often has.

Well, then suspend them for ~~lifetime~~ 25 years.

Because that meta site generates hot meta posts every day or two.

@HTTPS lol. Is that the highest ever?

Maybe they can implement the chat timeout feature on the main site?

12:25 PM

Apr 16 '17 at 10:36, by M.A.R.

The longest suspension in SE is 27 years, IIRC.

@HTTPS and "hot" as in "the site is on fire", in addition of "popular"

@HTTPS more hot meta posts than hot main posts.

Evil idea of the day. Start an Area51 site proposal for Vocaloid related questions.

slightly dupe of Anime & Manga, Music: Practice & Theory, Music Fans

@HTTPS no more of Science&Fiction, Movies, Anime, Literature and so on

A question about SAO can be made on-topic on all four sites.

1:09 PM

@NogShine yes

But but. These conversations need to take place in the context of the site and its meta

@JourneymanGeek No chance for discussion. Delete.. Case closed.

Which seems like what I'd do TBH.

2:53 PM

Don Quixote Returns

Anonymous

3:55 PM

Suffering on Stack Overflow: How We Might Heal by April Wensel

4

regarding wasteland... Stack Overflow is not yet a vast wasteland: a history of moderator tooling

I praise myself for not being in any of the screenshots. I'm aware I'm part of the problem.

SHAME!!!

4:11 PM

Thanks for the support ;)

Rob Schneider "you can do it"

►

A: What does אֵלָ֛יו mean in Exodus 3:2?

Honestly, I'd just want to see AskQuestions.tech 5 years later from now on...

Like, what we can learn from them...

Anonymous

glances at the site

Anonymous

They have... one thread per day.

Anonymous

No doubt it's easier to work nicely at 0.2% of our scale.

user315433

4:16 PM

The advice on limiting interactions with new users in on point.

user315433

Though hard to do in review.

user315433

0

tell me meaning of a massenger

user315433

I guess it's a messenger who also gives you a massage.

Anonymous

We extrinsically motivate people with points, and new users are the best source of short-term points, so the interaction is inevitable in general. Good advice for individuals though.

To be fair, I'm kind of appalled at the team's inaction towards feature requests that attempt to increase inclusivity

Anonymous

4:19 PM

The team doesn't get a lot of general-user-facing Q&A features out in general, so I question your expectations, but what do you have in mind?

Example?

I guess the "ignore user" feature is a good one, although ironic

It took a long time for the ask-a-question wizard to roll out

I.... don't really think that's related to increase inclusivity though... but that just my judgement.

Anonymous

I think it is related; it reduces confusion for new users, helping their confidence.

4:22 PM

Well, I mean, it's off-putting for a user to post a question only to be told it's "off-topic" for the site

(I mean, look at Stack Overflow's off-topic close reasons...you'll see what I mean.)

Anonymous

I think if you look at recent-feature-changes-to-stack-exchange?answertab=active, it's not like they've been pumping out a ton of other features while ignoring those things.

For example, I see people in SOCVR quickly close-voting questions that lack an MCVE, or an attempt to debug the problem. This can come across to new users as "your problem is so easy, just debug it and you'll find it" which is off-putting.

Anonymous

No doubt.

@SonicWizard yeah, we are a real problem

As well as this off-topic close reason: "this question was caused by a simple typo, it's not helpful to other users". To be told that your question is "off-topic" for that reason is also very off-putting.

TBH I'd post these concerns on Meta, but I'm afraid I'll be downvoted and others won't see my ideas in a true light.

user315433

4:29 PM

I'd say that the relative lack of answers to advanced questions is a problem. Those that are not settled by finding a typo or reading the docs

@SonicWizard I still believe simple typo like missing a semicolon won't help future readers. You have alternative for this?

@HTTPS Just leave it?

user315433

Stack Overflow: finding typos and reading documentation for you, since 2008

@SonicWizard Answer it?

Closing questions as off-topic because they were caused by a simple typo is one subcategory of closing questions based on the answer, which is a general practice I don't like.

"So if the answer is that I made a typo here, my question is all of a sudden considered off-topic for the site?"

4:32 PM

So, we leave it, or answer it, or put the "answer" on the comment, or? wait 1 year until roomba trim it?

I'd answer it

Anonymous

Okay well you've entirely lost me.

Anonymous

If you want to fill the site with typo questions that have no help to future visitors, that will ruin everything.

Anonymous

That is as opposed to the mission as you can possibly get.

Maybe it's time to make that mission secondary

Anonymous

4:34 PM

Well.

There's Yahoo! Answers for that...

Whether we have a database of helpful questions and a smattering of not-so-helpful questions, we still have a database of helpful questions.

Anonymous

You seem to not appreciate the value that Stack is providing to the world. As someone who had to deal with development before Stack, I will oppose this line of reasoning as strongly as I can.

Really, probably Y!A is the most inclusive Q&A site now that I realized...

Besides, not every typo question is unhelpful to others...people may make the same typo. While the close reason specifies it's only for the portion that are unhelpful, people use it for every typo question.

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Hm. [turns around]

4:36 PM

If SE starts accepting all questions, regardless of quality, the reputation will suffer and many of the users who actually want to help with the hard questions will find somewhere else.

Anonymous

@SonicWizard If Google searched worked on programming-syntactic similarity, that might be reasonable, but it doesn't.

Anonymous

Yes. We're already partway down that road.

@Catija Well, gee, that's not what I was getting at.

It's the end result.

Anonymous

Yahoo Answers: Programming & Design

Q: Converting a digit to its POSTNET code

4:37 PM

2

I am writing a program that is supposed to take a ZIP code (represented by an int) and parse it into its POSTNET equivalent (represented by a C++ std::string) and vice versa. The algorithm to convert a POSTNET code into a ZIP code works fine, but the algorithm to convert a ZIP code into POSTNET d...

c++ zipcode

Typo question, but helpful

I'm talking about these types of questions. If I were to post that today, it would be quickly closed as having a typo. But is it low-quality?

Anonymous

That post should be deleted.

well, I doubt any future visitor will find it , and I'm not sure if it will help them

Anonymous

The answer does disqualify the question, because it's not about whether the asker followed a set of rules, it's about creating value for the internet.

Anonymous

This question creates negative value, by potentially distracting from more-likely-relevant posts in listings.

@SonicWizard No, it is not low-quality but that is not what the votes are for, right? Those are for Useful content.

4:41 PM

@rene People vote capriciously

Anonymous

That's true and I accept that that is a problem, and people are assholes. I agree.

@SonicWizard could you tell how other people will reach that question, read the answer, and think "ah, that's useful!"

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe bingo ...

4:57 PM

And for the record, no, we're not ganging up against you, but each of us has an opinion on SE's vision/mission/whatever.

Are we now required to leave this kind of disclaimers after every brawl?

@rene Hard to say, but better be safe than perceived as "intentionally ganging up"?

@SmokeDetector not sure about this, probably misguided OP...

with their shameless ad.fly link on the profile...

:6874753 are you afraid of being flagged and then banned? ... ;)

Or probably it's just me being insensitive for not deleting mine ... (I was often told that!)

user315433

5:18 PM

/review, and especially /review/close, is the white man's burden of modern age.

true that

Well, just checking that site's meta, indeed there were already new controversial posts...

An inspiring reading before going to bed...

Wait, I certainly hope Pandya is not the problematic user...

Okay, going to bed now... 💤

Q: Isn't it time to review the algorithm for letting good answers flow to the top?

5:39 PM

@HTTPS sleep well

I hope that ping didn't wake him

user315433

6:22 PM

Stellar got pro tem mods.... the site launched in January.

user315433

Although it's been four months, none of the mods reached 1000 rep yet. One has 145.

user315433

(I suppose that mod was chosen because they are also a moderator elsewhere; SE is trying to keep things connected.)

user315433

An idea: make a graph where vertices are sites and two sites are connected by an edge if they share a moderator.

user315433

Is this graph connected? What is its diameter?

user315433

7:16 PM

1

I'm pretty sure that back in 2008 when StackOverflow was created it made perfect sense to have an answer be "accepted" as that was the way forums were (and some still are) run: you ask the OP to change the title of the post to [Solved] when your solution worked for them, but: nowadays this does...

discussion feature-request

@bro Won't down-/close-/delete voting work out for such case?

user315433

Downvotes don't knock accepted answers down.

But they give a clear sign though.

user315433

Delete votes can be cast once it's negatively scored, but it takes forever and a half for a wrong answer to be deleted.

Anonymous

Long overdue for change.

Q: Please unpin the accepted answer from the top

7:20 PM

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of dupes at the diverse Meta sites about that topic.

user315433

Also, 2-3 downvotes don't send any signal when they are put against 20 upvotes from 8 years ago when the answer was a good one.

Anonymous

425

Accepted answers are pinned to the top of the list of answers, even when the accepted answer is outvoted by other answers (unless it was a self-answer). I am requesting that we stop pinning the accepted answer to the top and just allow it to be in its natural sort order position. My request bas...

feature-request status-declined accepted-answer

Anonymous

Wait this is status-declined? I thought I remembered this being under consideration.

Anonymous

82

Q: Let's move some negatively scored answers from the top spot

Internally, we've been discussing how we can deal with obsolete or out-of-date answers. A few weeks ago, I requested some feedback on how to encourage edits to these types of answers, while I'm still wading through everything on that post but now I'm focusing my attention on the problem of negat...

discussion feature-request accepted-answer sorting feedback

Anonymous

Have you considered simply never "pinning" an accepted answer? The default view should be votes. If an accept was just treated like 1 up vote (or maybe weighted more - 2, 3, or even 5 up votes), you just naturally filter answers. The biggest advantage of the up vote is a special recognition in the form of an extra 15 Internet points to the solution that best helped the asker. That doesn't mean it's the best answer or the most helpful to the next person who finds the question. As a bonus, accepting could also apply a standard up vote to a question for sorting purposes. — Thomas Owens Aug 21 '15 at 18:19

Anonymous

7:22 PM

@ThomasOwens Yes, I have considered it and I'd actually prefer that. We've discussed this extensively internally and the general consensus is that the accepted answer is the signal that it's a tested answer which worked to solve the specific question. That being said, I'm taking some baby steps here, with focusing solely on negatively scored accepted answers...it's entirely possible I'll continue to pester everyone here to eventually sway their opinions. — Taryn ♦ Aug 21 '15 at 18:24

Anonymous

Bumped.

user315433

A possible new username: "READ and See - It's a Good Idea"

Anonymous

R̛͞҉E̡͞͝A̸̷̧͠͝D̛͜͝͝

user315433

> "It’s hard to tell the story of @StackOverflow without describing it as a huge act of generosity from the people who answer questions on there" - @spolsky shares his experience helping developers become more efficient. Each answer on SO saves another developer about 30 minutes. pic.twitter.com/VorhxY3KN9 -- SCNA at 12:27 PM - 19 Apr 2018

user315433

Where did that "30 minutes" come from?

7:33 PM

Maybe it's from the 6-8 hours normally spent on debugging.

A: Why is "cupboard" pronounced with a silent "p"?

@bro from reading the 20 other answers that don't solve your issue (6 of which had dead links). Once you found the answer it takes 2 minutes to implement ...

user315433

-2

lets just say that the english language comprises some of the most phukd up sounds on the planet

user315433

I tend to agree

user315433

Mostly on the account of its weird relation of orthography and phonetics.

user315433

> I appreciated @spolsky’s thoughtful response when asked whether @StackOverflow, a tremendous influence that is helpful to so many, is aware that it’s harmful to many others. I’m willing to try feeling hopeful for improvements. Let’s watch carefully. #SCNA twitter.com/scna/status/987050019948724226 … -- Amitai Schleier at 12:41 PM - 19 Apr 2018

user315433

7:46 PM

I'm not on board with the concept of a harmful site with voluntary participation.

user315433

8:02 PM

I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place

user315433

Will there once be something like that about SO?

user315433

> I’ll say there were very few decisions made. I think that the biggest problem that Reddit had and continues to have, and that all of the platforms, Facebook and Twitter, and Discord now continue to have is that they’re not making decisions

user315433

Some good points that sound familiar...

user315433

> like 99 percent of everybody who visits Reddit ... land on a page and they leave and they never come back. The biggest opportunity to grow Reddit is to focus on that part of the funnel. By doing that ... you pretty much completely ignore everything that’s actually going on on the site. You ignore the moderators; you ignore the users who are contributing content; you ignore the communities that are being created and the activities going on within them.

user315433

> Facebook and Twitter have teams in other countries taking care of the worst of the internet, and Reddit hasn’t even considered doing something like that.

user315433

8:16 PM

and SE has Charcoal...

user315433

Who could in principle extend into mass flagging of rude comments as rude... same principle, automatic deletion.

@bro Andy had a bot for doing that on SO, he was forced to shut it down after he became a mod (so his comment flags were binding).

user315433

That's different in that flags require mod review. One can't do that at SO scale.

user315433

If people actually flagged all comments that should be removed, moderators would not be enough.

user315433

Spam removal works because it's automatic with 6 flags. We are not waiting for a mod to enter the queue.

user315433

8:20 PM

Which on some sites takes weeks or months

@bro Comment removal is automatic with three flags

user315433

Yes, but does it happen in practice?

8:35 PM

@userunknown Du weisst ja, wenn Du mit mir chatten willst ;-) ...

user unknown

9:02 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ In english, I know, I remember. I have been without Internet over 6h and now have to <DE: abgrasen> SE (scala, linux, bash, algorithm), looking for low hanging fruits, earning some upvotes ...

Peter Alexander...Die süßesten Früchte

@userunknown I'm looking for the higher hanging fruits ;-)

►

user unknown

9:18 PM

Wenn man davon Peter-Alexander-Fan wird, dann lieber nicht.

@userunknown War ich nie wirklich :-)

user315433

9:43 PM

An idea for one-flag comment removal: /^Stack Overflow is not/

user315433

10:08 PM

> I’ve personally experienced the kind of treatment April points to in our meta communities. My time at Stack has been one of my best work experiences ever, but the couple bad weeks I’ve had were as a result of poor treatment from some meta community users. - Joe Friend

Poor Joe. :(

user315433

> I deserve to sit in this tree, bird. I climbed up here and your aggressive whistles will not bring me down. -- A bear at 2:44 PM - 19 Apr 2018

user315433

A PM reacts to meta criticism

user315433

A distracting thing in A Bear's tweets is the list formatting with -no -space -after -hyphens. That will not render as a list in Markdown. :(

In my opinion, 25% of the overall problem would be solved if users linked to relevant policy pages in their comments. Not doing so comes across to a new user (who may be accustomed to forums where moderators establish the rules, and usually are lenient with them) as rude.

For instance, that "thanks" problem: if you just remove "thanks", the thing in that post happens. Whereas if you remove "thanks" and also comment "hey, I removed your thanks because our policy says they are not to be included in posts: [link]", it's much less likely to happen.

10:30 PM

@bro wonder who those users are... I was upset over the new new new top bar for a while, hope I'm not one of them... o_O

@SonicWizard if there will be official policy requiring people to add such comments, 99% of the people will just stop editing. Not a good solution.

@SonicWizard I think that you would find that helpful... but I think most people (or at least many) find that being quoted chapter and verse is somewhat off-putting. It's often much more helpful to them to have specific guidance or a friendly explanation in the comment with a note, "if you want more info, there's some here"... but using "policy" just makes people bristle.

Same as requiring comment for downvote.

I don't think he's saying a comment should be required with an edit... more that the comment should explain the edit... though, that's what edit reasons are for.

@Catija true too

It's like I'll tell my kids "don't do [something here]", and quote some complicated official rule from rulebook. :)

user315433

Replacing one line of verbal clutter with another...

Anonymous

10:34 PM

Joe's post is pretty good.

Q: Announcement: New feature notification

... which is my point about the edit reason.

Though, for new users, they may not realize they can look at the history to see an explanation of why the edit was made... and many long-time users don't always use them.

I still haven't finished April's ... It's a lot longer than I originally thought it was.

user315433

@ShadowWizard I think it was about the NEW button in Stack Overflow top bar.

user315433

Speaking of which, it was like a month or two since the last topbar redesign, we're due for a new one.

Anonymous

It might be interesting to surface recent (last week?) activity in some way like this.

user315433

10:42 PM

Most of edit descriptions are more like #2 and #3 than #1.

user315433

-70

Background We’re kicking off the first bit of work that will allow us to better communicate with members and visitors via the website. This work will be done incrementally over the coming months. Ultimately it will work across the entire Stack Exchange network, but initial usage will focus on St...

discussion notifications

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe That seems kinda busy and like it might take up a bunch of space... Maybe just the most recent one with a link for "more"?

Anonymous

A proper design could shrink that to a third the size, but I might actually like having it be a bit noisy to reflect the degree of recent activity. Probably only show it to users with editing privileges, or on their own threads, though.

@bro totally missed that. So some of the comments/answers there upset Joe?

Anonymous

That wasn't the only one. Most of his first posts were heavily downvoted, with many pretty critical comments.

Anonymous

10:56 PM

Particularly since he was unfamiliar with the community, it was a pretty heavy thing to run into in his first month on the job.

@ShadowWizard I think Joe's been on the receiving end of a lot of short tempers and knee-jerk reactions related to a variety of things... that's sort of what happens any time UI is changed/fixed/improved... (put whichever of the prior you wish in quotes to make yourself feel good...) But there were also a lot of really measured responses that gave him the information he needed... rather than "this is crap, you suck", "This doesn't work for me, here's why, what can we do to address this?"...

user315433

I have not seen the NEW button since, but there weren't any new features either.

The latter response is always going to be easier for both sides to move forward with.

Anonymous

It didn't help that he was stepping into an environment when trust between the community and the company had deteriorated a bunch.

Yeah. And he didn't actually have anything to do with the new topbar design when it was initially rolled out, I think...

Anonymous

10:58 PM

I think he's done a good job both getting an understanding of the community, and rebuilding some trust, so it's a bit smoother now.

I agree. :) I've really appreciated how much effort he's put in and how willing he is to listen and change and redirect based on constructive feedback.

@SonicWizard ... Keep reading...

@bro The NEW button will be making a return very soon. I'm sure that will be loads of fun. ;)

To be fair I kind of resent Joe for his decision to remove the 404 polyglot on Stack Overflow

I have a +195 request there to add it back

If the stated reason is that you're trying to unify Teams with public Stack Overflow, why not have the polyglot everywhere?

FWIW, the last post on the ch-ch-ch-changes wan't much better than some of my early posts. The reality is that we have VERY opinionated users on Meta. That's as I would expect.

However, a minority of them struggle to voice their opinion in a constructive way. In some cases that actually directly attack and disparage the integrity of the team. I've been very careful to not delete comments on my post, but there's some crap that just doesn't belong there.

Howdy @Joe :D I have a link for you if you're interested in talking to someone about their experiences... ?

11:10 PM

@SonicWizard Ultimately it will be unified across the network. The polyglot doesn't makes sense anywhere but SO.com and even there many people didn't get it.

@Catija Would love to.

Do you have an omni-diamond? There are some deleted comments on IPS that are relevant.

I could email you a screenshot if not.

@SonicWizard The team knew we were stepping in it with that decision. Changing things that are connected to history is always hard for people.

@JoeFriend To be honest, I'd rather prefer that it not be. The 404 page adds charm to the different sites.

In general, I'd prefer that the site designs not be unified. It removes their unique charm.

@Catija Email would be great. Jfriend@stackoverflow.com

Anonymous

@SonicWizard I would like to see it stay, but it is a little vestigial, and its removal is consistent with the general direction of the site's designs, which is overall good.

Anonymous

11:12 PM

It's small compared to what else we've lost of the old character, so, heh.

@JoeFriend So then what are you going to do about the +195 request to give it back?

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe I want the old fonts back

Anonymous

That's unfortunate.

Anonymous

It's clear that Stack's frontend design team is currently executing the best they ever have. If this is a casualty, so be it.

@SonicWizard I totally understand that point of view and appreciate it. The reality is that this is the example of the thousand small differences that create a ton of friction for deploying new functionality across the network.

Wikipedia implemented a skinnable architecture, so once the new "Vector" skin was implemented in 2010, users could switch to the old "Monobook" skin if they wanted. Today, there are still quite a few active Wikipedia users who use the Monobook skin.

11:14 PM

I want to create a system that can have a sustainable level of site customization and yet allows us to improve the core functionality across the network will no delays.

@JoeFriend Part of the reason why Meta Stack Exchange gets so many off-topic questions is because it looks the same as many other sites, so users don't realize they followed a link to a different site (e.g. from a help page) and then post their off-topic question on Meta.

@SonicWizard status-declined, of course.

@ShadowWizard don't give any hints

@SonicWizard The new system will support plenty of theming to avoid that. Shouldn't be an issue.

Anonymous

👍

11:16 PM

@JoeFriend So, what's changed so much between 2013 and now? Back then, with the current design, core functionality could be improved without very many delays.

@JoeFriend you mean same design for all sites? That's why there are no more custom designs for graduated sites?

@ShadowWizard It's all documented in the "ch-ch-ch-changes" post

IMO it's a mistake, people love the fact each site has its own unique design.

Anonymous

I think their decision-making is pretty clear and explicable if you weigh the costs/benefits and priorities.

@SonicWizard It took like two years to get all of the sites onto the same codebase... there were about 16 sites constantly breaking every time they mucked with something.

Anonymous

11:18 PM

@SonicWizard That's not really true.

The whole close reason system was improved

@JoeFriend And what's to become of Area 51? Is it still going to run on the old machinery while the rest of the network runs with the newly improved robots?

Anonymous

You ask too many questions of people.

I'm naturally inquisitive.

Anonymous

If your barrier to asking a question is low, the barrier to other people ignoring your questions may be similarly low.

Hey all, didn't meant to jump in to debate this on this evening. Sorry for stirring the pot. I've got to go spend time with family. If you're really interested, then you can see the update I hope to post tomorrow/monday on MSE on the ch-ch-ch-changes. The tldr is that we will be addressing some of the issues raised (hiding the left nav, fonts, and a few other customizations), but the bulk of what I posted on the original post is still the plan.

11:21 PM

@JoeFriend have fun, and thanks!

Later.

Anonymous

I am giving you advice. If you ask fewer questions/give fewer opinions, in general, people will be more likely to pay attention to what you do say. When you say everything that comes to mind, people begin to ignore you.

Anonymous

Your mileage may vary. If it works for you, it works for you.

Give me an alternate way to get my curiosities satisfied and my opinions known.

That said, I think it's better to remove the SO-only parts from the "ch-ch-ch-changes" post and post on MSO, leaving only the parts that affect the whole network in MSE.

Anonymous

11:23 PM

@SonicWizard Accept that they may not all be, and chose the ones you most care about.

Anonymous

Or become an incredible persuasive writer and use the power of the pen! 🖋️

When a feature gets removed in a piece of software, I'm one who's likely to hold on to an older version of that software just so I can keep using that feature.

@JoeFriend ooh.looking forward to it.

I do really hope y'all work out a compromise and keep some of the neater design, but even if not, hopefully the newer sites will benefit