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user315433
7:11 PM
If I don't like reddit, and don't participate there, does that mean that reddit owes me an apology?
 
user315433
Or does that only work if you're a minority of some kind
 
user315433
@StackOverflow To everyone I have let down by having my part in building an environment that has been unwelcome and hostile to them, I am sorry.
 
@SFTP If you don't participate, they owe you nothing at all :-P
@SFTP Irrelevant fluff!
Since @balpha is a designate mod, that looks quite awkward for me :-/
 
user315433
This and the second (too boring to link) Joel's post. Copious amount of white guilt on display.
 
Anonymous
 
7:19 PM
@SFTP I stated my opinion about Joel more than once, and probably too often to be not welcomed with his seemingly well achieved business model. What else should I say?
 
Anonymous
That may be worth sharing throughout these discussions, once it's up.
 
7:40 PM
@rene lol you can see it in the message history, it was a reply I started to write yesterday or two days ago from mobile, got something in the middle, and forgot about it... when replying to @Journeyman I didn't notice it was still there. O_o
Not sure if it's SE mobile chat feature that keeps a draft, or mobile Chrome which cache even textbox values.
 
user315433
> I am @StackOverflow employee number 19. I have been working on Stack Overflow since 2010. There is no question that Stack Overflow has a huge inclusivity problem, and it's our fault. It would have been our job to prevent that from happening, and now it's our job to fix it. -- Jason Punyon, yes it's just my name is that ok? at 12:42 PM - 13 Apr 2018
 
user315433
There are more of these to come apparently.
 
user315433
Sad to see SO kowtowing to Wenzel and her cronies.
 
I doubt anything we do is going to make April Wenzel change her opinion. But, SO does have an inclusivity problem that we've known about for years from various sources.
 
So guess we know the next big project, after Teams: replace downvotes with something else.
 
7:54 PM
No plans for that that I know of
 
Or soften their hit, e.g. by requiring a comment.
 
or that
"someone felt bad after a downvote" isn't the problem we're trying to solve
 
Well, the core problem is downvotes. If Joel doesn't mean he'll do something about them then he won't solve any problem.
 
It's ... not the core problem.
 
So what is?
People are intimated and feel "unwelcome" because of the downvotes. And think it's personal, i.e. due to their gender/race/etc. No?
 
7:56 PM
The issue is that, say, women on SO get treated badly. Sometimes overtly, sometimes less so. It's a reflection of overall industry problems.
Downvotes aren't the issue there.
 
(same for close votes, but it's usually together anyway)
@AdamLear but they're not.
Show me proof please of women being treated badly because they are women.
 
With all due respect, I'm more inclined to listen to women on that.
I've seen plenty examples. I'm not going to play the "I show you an example and you refute it" game, though. :)
 
anyway... if there are users who really do it (treat women badly just because they're women), the solution is to punish them, suspension is a great way to make them stop. The solution is not to take the who tree out due to those bad apples.
 
I think you're making a whole lot of assumptions there about what solutions we decided on. I know this because we haven't actually decided on any.
We're not about making changes for the sake of making changes, so the first steps are all about gathering data and figuring out what specifically we want to address, before we even start thinking about the "how".
 
Well... guess we'll know in 6-8 months then. :)
 
Anonymous
8:06 PM
randomly-generated names and avatars, and run every post back and forth through google translate.
 
Anonymous
we already like to edit individuality out of posts; let's automate its removal from profiles too. :P
 
Anonymous
I guess the moral of the story is that I should go create a profile with a black female face and see whether there's a difference, or whether any issues are on deeper levels than that would expose.
 
Anonymous
If there's any investigation of systemic racism on the site, I would hope that anti-indian racism would be a consideration since they are one of the largest groups on the site and one against whom casual racism is common in the industry.
 
Anonymous
Systemic discrimination against them is a heavier issue than against several other potential groups from a perspective of "aggregate harm done", both in terms of total population (prospective users) and actual users.
 
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe don't think Indian people belong to any minority group
 
Anonymous
8:22 PM
I didn't use the word "minority"; I'd frame it more in terms of balance of community influence/stature, where they can be sort-of proportionally disadvantaged compared with Americans or Australians.
 
Anonymous
I don't concede (or reject) the premise that there is a significant problem, but if there is, I would consider this to be an important angle.
 
Anonymous
I have started embracing the Indian half of my blood as the world has been telling me to be ashamed of my White half. 😐
 
@Glorfindel this edit is too minor, don't you think? The summary is wrong and misleading, nothing was fixed, it only added captin to the link. Nothing was broken, and I don't think it justifies bumping 8 years old question back to the top. There are thousands of non captioned links around (millions?) should we really change them all to that format?
 
Anonymous
Mind you, while Britain was subjugating my Indian ancestors they were also deporting my White ancestors to serve as involuntary indentured servants in a foreign land, so I'm not sure from whom I am supposed to have inherited that sin.
 
You can't know someone's intent. You can only know their actions. People get sad and frustrated sometimes, and act out in unproductive ways that hurt others, perhaps intentionally. We try to stop them from hurting others. It seems to me that if someone is trying to hurt someone else, they'd attack them wherever they seem most vulnerable - maybe for their gender or ethnicity or whatever aspect about them seems to make them most vulnerable.
 
user310756
8:31 PM
 
@YvetteColomb <3
 
user310756
@Magisch two of my babies :) eating a much needed hard feed with supplements and milk replacer. The little tacker on the left was weaned early and suddenly
 
user310756
@πάνταῥεῖ ikr and my mare is ready to have her foal, so there will be 3 babies
 
user310756
@SFTP is this serious?
 
Anonymous
@AaronHall I see this in myself in ways I'm ashamed of not having entirely purged yet. I have evicted the word "bitch" and other gendered slurs from my vocabulary, but sometimes if I'm really angry at an individual my subconscious will still suggest associated terms like that, before I internally tell it to shut the hell up.
 
Anonymous
8:35 PM
But even if the root cause is "I'm angry at this individual for non-discriminatory reasons", if the comment uses language that evokes that kind-of baggage, it is worse, and therefore still a source of discriminatory bias in responses.
 
user310756
@AdamLear totally agree - I've replied to some of the twitter remarks - I don't want to rubbish SO, as it's not SO - SO does a good job of striving to improve things - we are dealing with a global community and I can tell I'll be striving to make things better for ... anyone who needs it
 
@yvette Calling horses pets might be missing the lines a bit ;-) ...
 
user310756
 
Growing horses is probably tougher than kittens ...
 
user310756
@πάνταῥεῖ they're pets, trust me. They get pats and hugs and gentle talks
 
8:39 PM
@YvetteColomb Sure, but ... ya know ...
 
user310756
@ShadowWizard when it occurs it can be subtle and pervasive. It's the same for anyone on the receiving end of discrimination - we can take it for granted that things seem ok - when they may well not be.
 
@Yvette Keeping horses well is a level higher than the regular pets. I know a bit since my nice and my sister are doing that all day long as their freetime allows so :-)
 
user310756
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe when people suggest this type of test, I always groan, it's glib. A life of being on the receiving end of racism cannot be truly felt by putting up a phony avatar to see what it feels like. These things a pervasive and affect people's lives on so many levels. In our country our Aboriginal people have a much shorter life expectancy than all else. It's appalling and yet people fail to see the inbuilt systemic discrimination that sets people up to fail and be outcast
 
user310756
@ShadowWizard the pile on of comments, sometimes downvotes and some of the hostility to people who struggle with programming or English as a language. The site has improved though and the ethos of SE is excellent in trying to bring about change - it's a matter of making the community feel as though they've made that decision on their own.
 
Anonymous
Stack Overflow doesn't seem particularly well-positioned to offer therapy to resolve a lifetime of abuse.
 
Anonymous
8:53 PM
If the answer is "reduce the amount of general nastiness, because that is felt more painfully by disadvantaged groups", that's hard to disagree with.
 
I have faced the arbitrary and capriciously hostile welcome wagon before. I think that is the real issue.
 
Anonymous
It is a real issue.
 
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Yeah, we're aiming more for that rather than therapy or anything like that.
 
Anonymous
Cool. If that's what much of this discussion boils down to in practice, all may be happy with the result.
 
@AdamLear is the production build mentioned here deployed or am I waiting for anything > rev 2018.4.13.29864 ?
 
9:01 PM
@rene yeah, that change has been built out
 
:( it didn't fix my issue ..
 
hmm. yeah, theme.css no longer 404s, but the read counts are stuck
 
Oh, did I break it again but now for good?
 
Doubt that it's your fault, but if you want to take the blame who am I to say no? :)
 
I'm happy to take the blame!
 
user310756
9:06 PM
@AaronHall of course - it's a group mentality that is not uncommon and we need to crack it on it's head
 
user310756
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe seriously - don't make comments that do not follow a socratic argument - it just degrades and derails the discussions and doesn't actually help to solve anything - in fact it helps to ensure the problems are perpetuated
 
user310756
One thing that needs to stop is pile on - a particular thing that @rene has made clear is unacceptable in the SOCVR
 
@rene Nick and Geoff are digging into wtf is going on there
I'm apparently just a messenger, but that's fine because that means I can officially consider myself on vacation till next Friday
 
@AdamLear that sounds ... serious ... thanks!
 
user310756
it needs to stop on the main site and on meta, how many times do people need to tell someone - "I don't agree!"
 
9:10 PM
@AdamLear have a nice week!
 
thanks :)
 
user310756
@AdamLear have a nice time
 
and the answer to "should I blame caching?" on the inbox issue is "yes"
 
Lol
 
Anonymous
@YvetteColomb Okay, let me make that Socratic: is Stack Overflow well-positioned to resolve the root issues that cause some people to be more sensitive to the same types of responses? If not, what is the point in that casual chain where Stack Overflow can make progress?
 
Anonymous
9:13 PM
Answers, above: "no", and "reducing baseline hostility on the site".
 
Anonymous
:s/casual/causal
 
@YvetteColomb Pile-on isn't good, but noobs also need to know when they're really outside of norms and that they're not just dealing with a lone-petty-tyrant. Maybe we need good cop/bad cop... where "bad" might just be terse and bossy...
 
Anonymous
Mentorship kind-of provided good cops to balance the endless bad cops.
 
Anonymous
Having that bit of positive or contextualizing feedback seemed to help users interpret other negative feedback in a more constructive way.
 
I'm still bored about the toxicity blaming. That's all fake, but became popular :-/
Probably because of business needs ...
 
user310756
9:18 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe no one was suggesting that we do. We're discussing community attitude
 
Anonymous
@πάνταῥεῖ To be frank, the industry as a whole has also grown up a bit, and immature idiocy that was once tolerated is being appropriately increasingly rejected.
 
Anonymous
I'm sorry if that adversely affected you, but this is hardly an imposition of unreasonable standards.
 
user310756
@AaronHall yep agree - not everyone who comes onto the site is sainted that's for sure - it's the people who are making that effort - but you can see they're struggling to make a question on topic - doesn't mean they will always be like that. Scaring them off doesn't help
 
user310756
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe yes, agree
 
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe "unreasonable standards" Simple conciousness and minimal intelligence have gone a bad path, yes!
 
user310756
9:22 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I don't think anyone is blaming as such there just needs to be some standards set. Well perhaps the standards raised
 
Anonymous
The frequent framing of the external discussion as focusing on racial and gender issues may lead users (such as myself) to read-into-that an implicit accusation that the community is overtly racist/sexist, while (from the discussion above) it appears that the intent is rather than that the community is mean and there are external systemic factors that cause that to lead to indirect racist/sexist outcomes.
 
Anonymous
Twitter is an awful venue to talk about this because it invites people to assume the worst subtext and get offended.
 
@YvetteColomb Are you keeping all of them?
Or are you planning to sell some off when they're grown?
 
@YvetteColomb I leave it to @DJT. If he made it to be the leader of the free world it just be so. I'm feeling too weak and tired to bother with that anymore. :-(
 
user310756
@Magisch yes :) they're my new babies - they are from the wild - no they have their forever homes
 
user310756
9:26 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe it's not confined to any race/gender/religion it's the basic mentality that can still prevail and is much seen on meta... it's not helping to make people feel welcome
 
user310756
on meta (less so the main site - it gets jumped on quickly there) people jump onto posts and it's overwhelming and like watching a rugby match.
 
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe But muh virtue signalling!
 
user310756
I honestly think it's counter productive and toxic
 
@AaronHall Be careful, you're a professor, they get fired for not confirming to everything all the time
ugly trend in academia tbh
 
> "denunciatory rhetoric is so much easier and cheaper than good works, and proves a popular temptation. Yet is it far better to light the candle than to curse the darkness." - William L. Watkinson
 
user310756
9:30 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe and sorry - I was harsh before - I'm so used to the arguments on so meta. They are often attacks in the guise of betterment for the community
 
Anonymous
I was inappropriately flippant.
 
user310756
@AaronHall my slogan is "be a part of the change you want to see"
 
user310756
and I put that on twitter fwiw - you get more bees with honey.
 
user310756
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe which comment are you replying to?
 
Anonymous
@YvetteColomb I was replying to your apology and referring to my earlier comments such as about therapy.
 
user310756
9:33 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe ah ok. and thanks
 
user310756
ok I'm going to bed. I've been on foal duty all night :) so I'm in some other time zone atm... not Aussie
 
Anonymous
o/ cheers
 
user310756
\o
 
user359686
o/
 
user310756
be prepared for more foal spam though
 
user310756
9:35 PM
@Magisch night/morning nice to see you \o
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: "Not quite yet" vs "not yet" by Flash Gordon on english.SE
 
ah, about time to go home
 
9:51 PM
Just being pedantic:
"if you are in a team anywhere on the network"...so teams exist on other network sites as well? — Sonic Wizard 20 secs ago
@Alisha Oops, I did it again...
 
user359686
@SonicWizard How can I //help?
 
Oops, I did it again...
 
user315433
Next, expect Justin Bieber to issue an apology for failing to appeal to male population to the same extent as to female population.
 
user315433
(Substitute a current teen girl idol if necessary; I'm not current on the topic.)
 
user315433
Such discrimination and exclusion.
 
10:06 PM
Well, they could... There’s nothing in particular tying it to SO... — Dean Ward ♦ 3 mins ago
 
@SFTP can we just be "friends" :-P
Disgusting!
 
@SFTP What's the likelihood that Teams will suffer the same fate as Documentation?
 
user202362
11:07 PM
I can understand why birds chirp more during spring, I wonder whether people talk more (on the internet) for the same reason, at least partially due to the same reason.
 
user315433
@SonicWizard Less likely than for Docs, because Teams are positioned as a revenue product from the beginning.
 
And I wouldn't be surprised if the underlying changes were useful for enterprise as well
 
user202362
11:27 PM
stackoverflow is a great place for lurking - you can get all your answers if you're good at lurking, no interaction necessary ...
 
Anonymous
11:48 PM
Having re-read all of the tweets again I see now that my interpretation was initially mis-coloured
 
Anonymous
having seen tweets like this first:
 
Anonymous
@janeylicious @codinghorror @PolloBrav0 @cullanbonilla @lmcdo_ @alilynnet @DominicCronin @cristynhoward @Bob_at_BH @spolsky @StackOverflow He doesn't respond to women much (surprising, I know), but thank you for making this point. 🙏
 
Anonymous
I was interpreting much of the discussion as being on that angle
 
Anonymous
when most of it was more about friendliness in general with that as an ancillary point.
 
Anonymous
silly me
 
11:53 PM
@TelKitty well stack exchange as a whole eventually should just have the answer you need already ;p
Also, as a woman, what do you feel about this whole mess? ;p
 
user202362
I think It's advantageous to be able to move on quickly.
 
user202362
Have a variety of things in your life also means you spend less attention on each
 
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