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12:04 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: How do I install my wireless card driver offline by Hafiz Saqib on askubuntu.com
1:01 AM
@TimStone or they use SEDE a lot and are waiting for you.
1:19 AM
Could be, could be
4 hours ago, by Ano
Duplicate of something, can't find it: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307582/new-comment-notification-should-‌​be-skipped-if-im-known-to-have-seen-it
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Web browsers with NPAPI plugins support by CitoplasmaX on askubuntu.com
1:43 AM
Philosophical morning, and my throat soars
oh, and rude morning too...
Wise words of the day,,.
A: How to best invest 90,000 EUR with zero knowledge in investing?

nitarshsA wise guy's suggestion: Spend it in satisfying your biggest desires and thereby clear up the clutter in your mind. By doing this you improve your focus and decision making thereby making you wiser and more successful in whatever you do.

1:59 AM
bu, bu, bu, but my biggest desire is in investing...
> there's no point in wasting time, when the answer may be found on other helpful sites!... and the answers to which, may have been provided months ago, and-- in some cases!-- even years ago! . Please!... no emails! tor.stackexchange.com/a/16795
Could be Stack Exchange motto.
So, my biggest desire is to invest in subsidized vending machines... and I'll become wiser!
2:20 AM
@SmokeDetector another Insta- product?
2:41 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: What is the best way to seal caulk tube? by tubeanew on diy.SE
> Now, don't get me wrong, but I thought this was an Interpersonal Skills stack, not an Interpersonal Problems one. Right now, I think this stack has a problem. -- Let's talk with X about Y so we can achieve Z on IPS.SE
Uhh, I feel that stack always has a problem...
step 1: run away from XML at full speed.
2:59 AM
but always
that is the way where madness lies.
How 'bout CSV?
I have nothing bad to say about csv.
I've done so many unspeakable horrors back in the day involving those
CSV is fine. Not bloated, easy to process.
Personally I may not have seen jsonl in actual practice
"easy to process" depends on if you use actual CSV, or just the subset that doesn't involve spaces, quotes and newlines in cells
class excel(Dialect):
    """Describe the usual properties of Excel-generated CSV files."""
    delimiter = ','
    quotechar = '"'
    doublequote = True
    skipinitialspace = False
    lineterminator = '\r\n'
    quoting = QUOTE_MINIMAL
register_dialect("excel", excel)
3:07 AM
If it's not this (the default dialect in Python's csv module), then I may also run.
@JeremyBanks heh, that's one thing LO does a lot better
I haven't seen JSONL much in practice either, but I think even if you haven't seen it it should still be the lowest-friction option to consume in most languages these days.
I've done some crazy shit with LO and your usual *nixy text mangling tools back in the day
What is LO?
3:10 AM
@JourneymanGeek What are advantages of LO over AOO?
@Ano at the time, AOO was owned by oracle and kinda unmaintained.
AOO only exists because of Oracle's mistreatment of their open source developers, so I avoid it on principle. LO was the rightful master fork. But I haven't kept up.
I think the critical bits should be the same.
(I actually favour MS office for most things)
eh, mix of versions.
3:14 AM
I'm not a power user of anything, so I've been almost exclusively on Google Docs for years for convenience.
I think I run 2016 right now
I use 2016, as well as 2013 on Windows RT
@JeremyBanks I don't use any really really obscure features
LO just has a very odd layout for me when it comes to word processing
@JeremyBanks Uses too much RAM on my PC, and I often find myself commonly using features that are for some reason absent from Google
Also isn't compatible with touchscreens
(also, tbh, I've gotten resigned to the fact that everyone has their own workflow)
3:17 AM
I have also become a big touchscreen user recently. I am hopecting that UX improves before long.
there's no right or wrong way to do things - I find myself writing longer things in sublime text first, because formatting is a distraction.
Anyone by any chance have a grandfathered 25 GB OneDrive account?
I like my mechanical keyboards and rediculously sensitive mice and big screens but.... I'm also fine with doing stuff on my phone.
I think I snagged one of those right before they closed it. Let me see...
3:19 AM
They automatically grandfathered people who used 4GB+, and other users could request it. I didn't use 4GB+ because they had a file-size limit of 100 MB (expanded from 50 MB) and syncing tools didn't exist at the time. However, I did request it, and I sure am glad I did.
@JeremyBanks Are you talking about the size decrease from 15GB to 5GB?
@Ano Yes, I guess I was.
I didn't realize it was previously even larger.
I'm talking about in 2011, when they decreased from 25GB to 7GB
The back up to 15, and now 5
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in answer: What weed covering should I use under my mulch? by wow on gardening.SE
3:20 AM
@SmokeDetector Yes, wow, it was a very good answer.
@SmokeDetector offensive
I think the only cloud service I use is google photos
I don't use Gmail, so my 15GB per account is not used by that.
(since I can sync phone photos, and my Sony alpha has a third party addon that will sync images to that)
I don't use Google Drive very much, so pretty much all of it I use for photos.
I used it back when Google Photos was part of Google+
3:25 AM
I bought into Google's old storage plans pre-G+, in the Picasa days, which had way better pricing than anybody offers today. When they cancelled those plans, they gave 1 TB free for 5 years as compensation. That expires in a few months. :(
What happens if you're over quota when that expires?
30 or 60 day grace period, and then basically all Google services start breaking, IIUC.
It hasn't been communicated entirely clearly.
I'm at 400 GB stored, so I'll need to get a plan. Not going to be a huge pain, but I liked having it free, of course. :P
I don't really trust cloud services cause of google reader/TOR
3:27 AM
What is TOR in this context?
(the old reader, probably the best clone of it, but a bit of a victim of their own sucess)
@JeremyBanks Maybe just move them to OneDrive, and subscribe to Office 365. Also gets you Office.
I miss Reader, but I don't think there's any realistic concern of Drive of Photos ceasing to exist.
Plus, if you get the home plan for $30 more, you can give four other users 1TB each
The Old Reader is a web-based news aggregator that delivers website, blog, and other Internet content to a web-based inbox. The service sprung up when Google removed social features from Google Reader; the site supports social media sharing, including the ability to "like" content, and find friends via social media networks. == History == The Old Reader was started as a hobby project by Elena Bulygina, Dmitry Krasnoukhov, and Anton Tolchanov. In March 2013, it only had 10,000 users, but started gaining popularity quickly after Google announced it would retire Google Reader. By the end of April...
@JeremyBanks photos and drive... I can back up
3:28 AM
They're vital components of Google's long-term consumer product strategy. Reader was somebody's side project.
reader, I literally used every single day
(I now run my own instance of TTRSS)
So find four other users bummed at losing the storage, and charge them $25 per year to cover the cost
I did too. I tried a few alternatives after but didn't like any of them and eventually stopped consuming RSS. :/
@JeremyBanks I think, even now 90% of my internetting is through RSS feeds
@Ano Disclosure: I work at Google and so I will be subscribing to their plan. :P
3:30 AM
@JourneymanGeek I owned a Sony PC whose homepage was set to a special version of iGoogle, but that doesn't work and now the default homepage is Google
@JeremyBanks Can you pay by payroll deduction?
lol, that would be nice but I don't think so.
Or do you get it for free, as part of their big dogfooding structure?
though right now, my standard set of bookmarks is... SU, SF (ought to swap it for MSE), SE chat (x2) facebook, G+ (which ... I have no idea why is still there) 2 slack channels, one gitter channel, twitter and TTRSS.
You have unlimited quota on your corporate account. You can create personal GSuite accounts for near-zero cost. But I don't think there's anything for your personal non-GSuite account except maybe a small discount.
I cannot keep up with all my websites manually.
3:31 AM
@JeremyBanks Is there really a clause in your employment contract that you can't use competitor services personally?
@JeremyBanks the latter is... pretty much as good as a non gsuite account, least while you work there?
@Ano Oh, no, definitely not. I just like to be a Company Man given equal options. (And in this case, I'm already way more invested in the Google ecosystem so moving to Microsoft would be a pain.)
@JeremyBanks What's the discount?
Not sure. Never checked since I'm on this 1 TB free thing.
For comparison purposes, a single-user account is $70 per year, and a five-user account is $100 per year total
3:33 AM
@JeremyBanks I guess the real question is which one of google's 200 chat apps they use internally ( hide )
How big is dogfooding there, really?
Hangouts Chat
not to be confused with Hangouts (chat)
that's the new one right?
Yes. It's quite good.
3:34 AM
@Ano there's no real reason not to dogfood I suspect
I have dogfood/dev/test versions of every Google app on my phone. They encourage you to test at least some apps if you have a corp phone. But most people get a bit conservative after being bitten by big beta bugs a few times. I don't know the actual numbers (and obviously couldn't share if I did).
or more specifically "what products do our competitiors run that we don't?"
@JeremyBanks what's the worst that could... [NOCARRIER}
@JeremyBanks At least a few times due to mistaken deployments I've ended up with dogfood versions of apps on my phone for no apparent reason
@JourneymanGeek CARRIER was also Google Fi in my case, but fortunately they didn't have a "dogfood cellular mode". ;)
3:37 AM
@Ano That... yeah. I've heard of that happening on the Android side of things. Seems like a pretty silly mistake.
(also, congratulations on the new job)
Google was asked about this, and they responded "somebody dun goofed"
people are human, except when they're dogs.
Thanks. I didn't even need to interview, because I was returning to Google within a couple of years, at the same level, and my manager vouched for me. They've got a very generous (and sensible) re-hiring process. :)
On the flip side, hey, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
3:38 AM
@JeremyBanks sounds cool
(and heh, I MIGHT be contracting there at some point. Assuming that things work out)
Good luck. :)
man, that I've lacked so far.
right now, I've got a company I did a short term contract with talking about a 3-6 month data centre gig there. Which is a job I've applied for a few times.
My dad no longer contracts at Google due to Singaporean management
heh, singaporean management can be terrible.
3:47 AM
Do they want us to guess who is posting each time?
@FTP Wikipedia has a strict "no sharing accounts" policy
Or maybe just can't deal with SE login/logout.
Maybe it's not shared. It could be one of them posting every time, they just don't want to say which one.
> Subscriber certifies to Stack Exchange that Subscriber is an individual (i.e., not a corporate entity) at least 13 years of age.
technically that's the case here?
3:50 AM
If we take "not a corporate entity" as the definition of "an individual"...
> All fee-based Services and virtual goods are provided “AS IS” with no warranties of any kind. Stack Exchange may modify and/or eliminate such fee-based Services at its discretion. Stack Exchange may share your personal information, including credit card information for certain transactions in accordance with our Privacy Policy. Subscriber understands and agrees that the payment for virtual goods grants Subscriber a limited license to use the virtual goods as specified on the Network.
I was on netflix for a month, then decided that there were not so many interesting movies that I want to watch. So I discontinued membership
I see that and go "Stackexchange Lootboxes?"
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, that's very interesting wording.
Do they mean hats?
3:51 AM
Seems like a weird way to say "careers talent subscription".
well, that's a fee based service?
@TelautonomousKitty You're not in the US, otherwise I'd say go for DVD.com
It's a virtual good.
I don't recall any "virtual goods"
3:53 AM
Hats are free though
Probably standard verbiage from somewhere else.
I'd guess its just standard boilerplate ;p
I tend to see more virtual bads than virtual goods on SE sites...
Which reminds me, haven't used the daily delete votes yet.
@Ano how does that help
4:38 AM
@TelautonomousKitty Meaning?
doesn't matter which site, if there is no interesting thing to watch, then it's the same
Q: A machine can flag spam automatically. Can it do it better?

AndyTL;DR: Charcoal is the organisation behind SmokeDetector. Since January 2017, we've been casting up to 3 flags automatically on posts that our systems are confident are spam. We'd like to increase that to 5 flags to reduce the time spam spends alive on the network. Who are you? Charcoal is a us...

@Ano I've rolled back your edit. Those changes were deliberately not made while we were composing the post, please don't try to override that.
4:54 AM
@ArtOfCode Does it have to do with my addition of the text "on behalf of willing users"? If so, why not just remove that?
By my recollection, a number of the things you edited were changes you proposed in your gist fork. If you look at the comments under the gist, I explained why those didn't make it.
(and British -> American spelling edits are unnecessary. Both are valid on SE.)
@ArtOfCode Ah, those were posted much later, and I was not notified of your comment (due to my notification settings). Sorry for the confusion. Also, my browser kept flagging those as incorrect spellings. Again, I apologize.
Yeah, gists need notifications really
@ArtOfCode Also, I see many users who just read a first few sentences and just assume things. I'd recommend making it clear from the get-go that people are opting in. My first instinct is that you guys are using a bunch of dedicated bot accounts.
Eh, if people don't wanna read the whole thing that's on them. It's explained both in this post and the last one, and I'll explain it in comments if necessary.
4:59 AM
@ArtOfCode Also, your comment says you don't need it in the TL;DR; I didn't put that in the TL;DR this time
@ArtOfCode "I left "on behalf" out because it's kinda unnecessary in the TL;DR"
I didn't put that text in the TL;DR this time.
@ArtOfCode I was also tripped up by the use of spaces. I think we should use at least one type of separator; I'm sure Europeans are used to seeing the comma as a thousands separator from time to time. I wouldn't recommend using a separator that doesn't exist in both.
5:03 AM
space definitely is used as a separator
@ArtOfCode In which locale is it commonly used?
@Ano definitely UK and US
less common than the comma, yes, but it's used
@ArtOfCode Never seen it used here before
@ArtOfCode Also, unrelated: I was tripped up by what I thought was two numbers: "why two numbers? "29" and "592"? Oh, wait, he meant "29 thousand 592"..."
5:07 AM
that's... not unrelated :P
Unrelated meaning "I'm not arguing for it to be changed, I was just stating something for the record"
@ArtOfCode Okay, that was my browser's autocorrect - I did not make that edit myself. You'll notice that I didn't change "optimising" to "optimizing" - I guess it made that change when I changed the hyphen to a comma. I didn't even notice that until you pointed that out.
(Side note: my browser also autocorrected "optimising" to "optimizing" when typing the above message, but I didn't make any nearby edits so it didn't happen there)
Q: Automatically destroy unregistered users when their only post gets the red flag treatment

badpUnregistered (operative word #1) users with only one post (operative word #2) that got deleted by Community (operative word #3) after spam or offensive flags should be deleted/destroyed automatically. These posts are typically made by: hit and run trolls who'll never come back, and just waste...

(cc @JourneymanGeek)
5:43 AM
json or xml?
json always
less of a pain to parse
I though HTML was a pain to parse
@Ano that's kind of in SO Corp's hands rather than Charcoal
5:51 AM
@JourneymanGeek SE. Always SE. After all, their legal name is still "Stack Exchange, Inc."
(also, as an aside, I've (privately) been opposed to what I consider too much autoflagging - so this is totally the "nay" answer for yay or nay)
Perhaps you'd want to give feedback to the request I linked above?
> Mods usually get around to these flags before the community casts enough flags to delete the post.
@Ano tbh, Its a much older feature request, and I don't see the point of bumping it in any way unless its necessary
Why not post an expanded version with more info and have the older one closed as a duplicate?
cause... I don't like doing that?
5:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek Why not? The post on getting a declined feature request reconsidered says that, and explain why the declination reason doesn't apply anymore
This isn't a declined request, but something similar
@Ano nothing has changed on SE's end
@JourneymanGeek It's no longer the case that:
3 mins ago, by Journeyman Geek
> Mods usually get around to these flags before the community casts enough flags to delete the post.
@Ano yup, but that's also part of a discussion I've been having with @ArtOfCode and @Undo over an extended period of time. I think we have diametrically opposite viewpoints on the automation of moderation tools (but not on the value of said tools).
And really the crux of the disagreement is "is it more important to get rid of spam quickly or is it more important to have the community engaged in doing their cleanup"
6:25 AM
in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 50 secs ago, by angussidney
Should someone leave a message in the TL telling Journeyman about the spammers-by-site page or the new site dashboard?
erm, that's kind of a thing I'd not be happy to rely on.
@JourneymanGeek Perhaps you want to look at the discussion taking place there in CHQ?
errrrm Do I?
@JourneymanGeek Yes you do. They're discussing you in particular.
Well, I'm sure they can let me know if there's anything I need to know
6:30 AM
By the way, no hard feelings, we're just trying to keep a balance between showing you the solutions we've come up with and bombarding you with arguments :)
@JourneymanGeek They're discussing whether you like to be pinged of something or not. If I were in the same position I'd want to explain that directly rather than have them speculate and do it wrong.
in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 34 secs ago, by quartata
I find the "get rid of spam quickly vs have the community involved in their cleanup" to be especially weird. not sure if we can compromise if that's his viewpoint...
@Ano or whether they need to.
@Ano so, I'm sure that folks can give me a headsup if needed.
The page build failed for the `master` branch with the following error:

Page build timed out. Please try again later. For more information, see https://help.github.com/articles/troubleshooting-github-pages-builds/.
I guess shoving a hundred thousand files into GitHub pages wasn't the best idea.
@JourneymanGeek By the way, I didn't initially say "chime in", I said "look at"
6:33 AM
the point of the meta post was both to encourage discussion on their end, and provide an alternative view point.
I was getting too clever and creating like 4 redirects for each page (/q/1, questions/1/, a/1, etc) and that massively increased the number of files. Getting rid of that might fix it.
@JourneymanGeek I can't cross-post messages between there and here for too long...
Considering its easy to find me on the network they can ping me
@Ano You don't need to.
so don't!
6:34 AM
@Ano The relevant discussion is taking place on the meta post. There's no need to keep cross posting here when it's clear they're not interested in discussing in chat.
@Rob tbh I kinda want to keep it to meta, ironically due to a few conversations we've had in the past behind closed doors ;p
Our opinions may differ but they're both valid viewpoints. From the Charcoal end, we'll do what we can to reconcile them, but there comes a point where it's better to just recognise that people are entitled to opinions whether we agree with them or not.
(also, I've talked to @ArtOfCode in great detail about this)
great great detail
I'm supportive of smokey, just kind of have a difference of opinion on ... can we say implimentational specifics?
6:37 AM
Not sure it's about implementation (or is it?). I think it's more philosophical differences on how spam should be handled and by who.
"behind closed doors"...so is that why I was unaware of those chats?
and neither of it is really wrong.
If it's implementation differences, it stands to reason that there'd be something we could change about the implementation of 5 flags to make it acceptable... which I don't think there is, for you?
well, I'm not directly aware of what charcoal talks about unless say, it gets mentioned.
@ArtOfCode I'd lean towards status quo or less, personally. Or at the very least have that opt in.
which is kind of the ideal for me
6:38 AM
hey -- just wanted to say that my thing up there was taken a little bit out of context. We want a compromise
Some sites actually feel like they need the ton of flags
I don't mean that we shouldn't bother
@quartata heh, That is precisely why I didn't get baited ;p
I don't pay much attention to Tavern except when something is broken so I was unaware that this was getting unceremoniously splattered across both rooms
@quartata heh, ya, that wasn't nice. @Ano
6:40 AM
@JourneymanGeek Me or him?
and that's kind of why I went "folks know where to find me" ;p
I figure at some point, folks could go "hey, so... erm... ya, we were talking about you in $channel"
I mean it's also not nice to be nitpicking your argument in another room so eh you know
Hey, they were discussing about letting you know of something, so I figured just do it now and get it over with
Now, I might actually be tempted to pop into charcoal about the "we have a control panel" thing. Simply in the sense that most mods arn't aware of the full extent of tools they have (myself included!) and needing to pop out to check something that's semi non critical on a external site is poor workflow.
@Ano only if you're a person involved.
@quartata the nitpicking is fine.
I think I've literally heard all those specific arguements. And I'm sure @ArtOfCode has heard ones similar to mine as well.
7 mins ago, by Ano
"behind closed doors"...so is that why I was unaware of those chats?
6:44 AM
@Ano this is plausible
@JourneymanGeek which control panel? There's the new site dashboard
@ArtOfCode that thing
Many shinies on that
That's brand new. You're not expected to know about it :P
yup, but that's literally another thing to monitor. And well, I occationally find that the mod learning curve's steep?
6:46 AM
we kinda rolled it out because of this
the spammers by site thing has been around for a while though
@quartata the 5 flags or ...
@quartata kinda. A bunch of mods have been asking for it for a while.
The BI incident prompted it mostly
Yeah, it's not a thing that everyone's going to know about or use, but it's useful to have it there
The general idea is to have everything that a moderator wants in one page, so we don't have all this fragmentation
It is, of course, unreasonable to expect every mod to know about a secret page which you can only get the link for if you ask in the TL
6:51 AM
@angussidney the new one's linked from the homepage :P
Could always go through config/routes.rb :p
assuming a mod knows about the home page - which kinda comes into an "implicit" complaint I think has come up about charcoal/sd?
that a bunch of stuff is kind of "we think its better, so we're doing it like that?"
very much an explicit complaint in some cases
ya, but its very hard to bring up without being controversial
which is a pain in the rear cause you guys are doing good work
6:53 AM
@JourneymanGeek I know it's not exactly perfect, but I think that an attempt to make it easier for mods is better than nothing
I'd like to fix that, but I'm not sure I know how. Open to suggestions. I try to make our standpoint "based on our experience we think this is the best way" rather than "your opinion is invalid", but it doesn't come across like that sometimes.
We're open to suggestions BTW
(which is kind of why I suggested having adjusting the auto-flag count upwards opt in)
Autoflagging will almost certainly be opt out if the mSE post goes well. The opt out process will likely be a simple meta post with community consensus.
@Undo which essentially makes the decision for the site in many cases.
6:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek It does, but I was talking about this in CHQ a moment ago. Hold on, lemme get a link
in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 13 mins ago, by ArtOfCode
@Rob Problem with opt-in is that lots of smaller sites won't be able to build significant community support on meta as opposed to apathy - so turning it on on those sites would lead to questions about whether we have permission from the community to do it. It's easier to make it default-on with an easy offer to turn it off.
in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 13 mins ago, by ArtOfCode
Turning it off is easier to justify in the face of a community "eh" than turning it on.
Yes. Turns out posting on 170ish sites is not doable. We're planning to have this one featured across every sidebar on every site.
@ArtOfCode this is where, let the mods decide.
Even less doable, from recent events.
Cause this is literally unilaterally deciding for everyone.
Maybe it's just better to have this discussion in CHQ than to fork it across multiple rooms?
6:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek not sure I'm comfortable with that, but I can't articulate why
and well, as a mod, I'm not ok about it.
@JourneymanGeek It's a decision that affects all sites provided the meta post goes well. If a site wants to turn it off, we're happy to do that.
@JourneymanGeek You're welcome to post on your sites asking for consensus to shut it off. That's been the policy forever.
@Undo I don't feel its your decision to make?
Not mine, no. mSE can, though.
6:59 AM
er... no?
Unless someone who's a CM or dev explicitly says yes I don't feel that's good enough

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