Tavern on the Meta

SmokeDetector

00:04

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: How do I install my wireless card driver offline by Hafiz Saqib on askubuntu.com

Journeyman Geek

01:01

@TimStone or they use SEDE a lot and are waiting for you.

Tim Stone

01:19

Could be, could be

Ano

4 hours ago, by Ano

Duplicate of something, can't find it: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307582/new-comment-notification-should-‌be-skipped-if-im-known-to-have-seen-it

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Web browsers with NPAPI plugins support by CitoplasmaX on askubuntu.com

HTTP

01:43

Philosophical morning, and my throat soars

oh, and rude morning too...

!!/report anime.stackexchange.com/a/44959/2516

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Do the trapped souls in the Reaper/Shinigami suffer? by Rich Chigga on anime.SE

user315433

Wise words of the day,,.

user315433

-1

A: How to best invest 90,000 EUR with zero knowledge in investing?

A wise guy's suggestion: Spend it in satisfying your biggest desires and thereby clear up the clutter in your mind. By doing this you improve your focus and decision making thereby making you wiser and more successful in whatever you do.

HTTP

01:59

bu, bu, bu, but my biggest desire is in investing...

user315433

> there's no point in wasting time, when the answer may be found on other helpful sites!... and the answers to which, may have been provided months ago, and-- in some cases!-- even years ago! . Please!... no emails! tor.stackexchange.com/a/16795

user315433

Could be Stack Exchange motto.

HTTP

So, my biggest desire is to invest in subsidized vending machines... and I'll become wiser!

HTTP

02:20

@SmokeDetector another Insta- product?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Is 'compromisation' actually used, or is there a better word? by luke on ell.SE

SmokeDetector

02:41

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: What is the best way to seal caulk tube? by tubeanew on diy.SE

HTTP

> Now, don't get me wrong, but I thought this was an Interpersonal Skills stack, not an Interpersonal Problems one. Right now, I think this stack has a problem. -- Let's talk with X about Y so we can achieve Z on IPS.SE

Uhh, I feel that stack always has a problem...

Anonymous

startups-2014/blob/master/dump/StartupsMeta/Comments.jsonl

Anonymous

step 1: run away from XML at full speed.

Journeyman Geek

02:59

but always

that is the way where madness lies.

John Dvorak

How 'bout CSV?

Journeyman Geek

hm

I have nothing bad to say about csv.

I've done so many unspeakable horrors back in the day involving those

Anonymous

CSV is fine. Not bloated, easy to process.

John Dvorak

Personally I may not have seen jsonl in actual practice

"easy to process" depends on if you use actual CSV, or just the subset that doesn't involve spaces, quotes and newlines in cells

Anonymous

class excel(Dialect):
    """Describe the usual properties of Excel-generated CSV files."""
    delimiter = ','
    quotechar = '"'
    doublequote = True
    skipinitialspace = False
    lineterminator = '\r\n'
    quoting = QUOTE_MINIMAL
register_dialect("excel", excel)

Anonymous

03:07

If it's not this (the default dialect in Python's csv module), then I may also run.

Journeyman Geek

@JeremyBanks heh, that's one thing LO does a lot better

Anonymous

I haven't seen JSONL much in practice either, but I think even if you haven't seen it it should still be the lowest-friction option to consume in most languages these days.

Journeyman Geek

I've done some crazy shit with LO and your usual *nixy text mangling tools back in the day

Anonymous

What is LO?

Journeyman Geek

libreoffice

Ano

03:10

@JourneymanGeek What are advantages of LO over AOO?

Journeyman Geek

@Ano at the time, AOO was owned by oracle and kinda unmaintained.

Anonymous

AOO only exists because of Oracle's mistreatment of their open source developers, so I avoid it on principle. LO was the rightful master fork. But I haven't kept up.

Journeyman Geek

I think the critical bits should be the same.

(I actually favour MS office for most things)

Ano

2016?

Journeyman Geek

eh, mix of versions.

Anonymous

03:14

I'm not a power user of anything, so I've been almost exclusively on Google Docs for years for convenience.

Journeyman Geek

I think I run 2016 right now

Ano

I use 2016, as well as 2013 on Windows RT

Journeyman Geek

@JeremyBanks I don't use any really really obscure features

LO just has a very odd layout for me when it comes to word processing

Ano

@JeremyBanks Uses too much RAM on my PC, and I often find myself commonly using features that are for some reason absent from Google

Also isn't compatible with touchscreens

Journeyman Geek

(also, tbh, I've gotten resigned to the fact that everyone has their own workflow)

Anonymous

03:17

I have also become a big touchscreen user recently. I am hopecting that UX improves before long.

Journeyman Geek

there's no right or wrong way to do things - I find myself writing longer things in sublime text first, because formatting is a distraction.

Ano

Anyone by any chance have a grandfathered 25 GB OneDrive account?

Journeyman Geek

I like my mechanical keyboards and rediculously sensitive mice and big screens but.... I'm also fine with doing stuff on my phone.

Anonymous

I think I snagged one of those right before they closed it. Let me see...

Anonymous

Ano

03:19

They automatically grandfathered people who used 4GB+, and other users could request it. I didn't use 4GB+ because they had a file-size limit of 100 MB (expanded from 50 MB) and syncing tools didn't exist at the time. However, I did request it, and I sure am glad I did.

@JeremyBanks Are you talking about the size decrease from 15GB to 5GB?

Anonymous

@Ano Yes, I guess I was.

Anonymous

I didn't realize it was previously even larger.

Ano

I'm talking about in 2011, when they decreased from 25GB to 7GB

The back up to 15, and now 5

Anonymous

lol

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in answer: What weed covering should I use under my mulch? by wow on gardening.SE

Anonymous

03:20

@SmokeDetector Yes, wow, it was a very good answer.

Ano

@SmokeDetector offensive

Journeyman Geek

I think the only cloud service I use is google photos

Ano

I don't use Gmail, so my 15GB per account is not used by that.

Journeyman Geek

(since I can sync phone photos, and my Sony alpha has a third party addon that will sync images to that)

Ano

I don't use Google Drive very much, so pretty much all of it I use for photos.

I used it back when Google Photos was part of Google+

Anonymous

03:25

I bought into Google's old storage plans pre-G+, in the Picasa days, which had way better pricing than anybody offers today. When they cancelled those plans, they gave 1 TB free for 5 years as compensation. That expires in a few months. :(

Ano

What happens if you're over quota when that expires?

Anonymous

30 or 60 day grace period, and then basically all Google services start breaking, IIUC.

Anonymous

It hasn't been communicated entirely clearly.

Anonymous

I'm at 400 GB stored, so I'll need to get a plan. Not going to be a huge pain, but I liked having it free, of course. :P

Journeyman Geek

I don't really trust cloud services cause of google reader/TOR

Anonymous

03:27

What is TOR in this context?

Journeyman Geek

(the old reader, probably the best clone of it, but a bit of a victim of their own sucess)

Ano

@JeremyBanks Maybe just move them to OneDrive, and subscribe to Office 365. Also gets you Office.

Anonymous

I miss Reader, but I don't think there's any realistic concern of Drive of Photos ceasing to exist.

Ano

Plus, if you get the home plan for $30 more, you can give four other users 1TB each

Journeyman Geek

The Old Reader

The Old Reader is a web-based news aggregator that delivers website, blog, and other Internet content to a web-based inbox. The service sprung up when Google removed social features from Google Reader; the site supports social media sharing, including the ability to "like" content, and find friends via social media networks. == History == The Old Reader was started as a hobby project by Elena Bulygina, Dmitry Krasnoukhov, and Anton Tolchanov. In March 2013, it only had 10,000 users, but started gaining popularity quickly after Google announced it would retire Google Reader. By the end of April...

@JeremyBanks photos and drive... I can back up

Anonymous

03:28

They're vital components of Google's long-term consumer product strategy. Reader was somebody's side project.

Journeyman Geek

reader, I literally used every single day

(I now run my own instance of TTRSS)

Ano

So find four other users bummed at losing the storage, and charge them $25 per year to cover the cost

Anonymous

I did too. I tried a few alternatives after but didn't like any of them and eventually stopped consuming RSS. :/

Journeyman Geek

@JeremyBanks I think, even now 90% of my internetting is through RSS feeds

Anonymous

@Ano Disclosure: I work at Google and so I will be subscribing to their plan. :P

Ano

03:30

@JourneymanGeek I owned a Sony PC whose homepage was set to a special version of iGoogle, but that doesn't work and now the default homepage is Google

@JeremyBanks Can you pay by payroll deduction?

Anonymous

lol, that would be nice but I don't think so.

Ano

Or do you get it for free, as part of their big dogfooding structure?

Journeyman Geek

though right now, my standard set of bookmarks is... SU, SF (ought to swap it for MSE), SE chat (x2) facebook, G+ (which ... I have no idea why is still there) 2 slack channels, one gitter channel, twitter and TTRSS.

Anonymous

You have unlimited quota on your corporate account. You can create personal GSuite accounts for near-zero cost. But I don't think there's anything for your personal non-GSuite account except maybe a small discount.

Journeyman Geek

I cannot keep up with all my websites manually.

Ano

03:31

@JeremyBanks Is there really a clause in your employment contract that you can't use competitor services personally?

Journeyman Geek

@JeremyBanks the latter is... pretty much as good as a non gsuite account, least while you work there?

Anonymous

@Ano Oh, no, definitely not. I just like to be a Company Man given equal options. (And in this case, I'm already way more invested in the Google ecosystem so moving to Microsoft would be a pain.)

Ano

@JeremyBanks What's the discount?

Anonymous

Not sure. Never checked since I'm on this 1 TB free thing.

Ano

For comparison purposes, a single-user account is $70 per year, and a five-user account is $100 per year total

Journeyman Geek

03:33

@JeremyBanks I guess the real question is which one of google's 200 chat apps they use internally ( hide )

Ano

How big is dogfooding there, really?

Anonymous

Hangouts Chat

Anonymous

not to be confused with Hangouts (chat)

Journeyman Geek

that's the new one right?

Anonymous

Yes. It's quite good.

Journeyman Geek

03:34

@Ano there's no real reason not to dogfood I suspect

Anonymous

I have dogfood/dev/test versions of every Google app on my phone. They encourage you to test at least some apps if you have a corp phone. But most people get a bit conservative after being bitten by big beta bugs a few times. I don't know the actual numbers (and obviously couldn't share if I did).

Journeyman Geek

or more specifically "what products do our competitiors run that we don't?"

@JeremyBanks what's the worst that could... [NOCARRIER}

Ano

@JeremyBanks At least a few times due to mistaken deployments I've ended up with dogfood versions of apps on my phone for no apparent reason

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek CARRIER was also Google Fi in my case, but fortunately they didn't have a "dogfood cellular mode". ;)

Journeyman Geek

;p

Anonymous

03:37

@Ano That... yeah. I've heard of that happening on the Android side of things. Seems like a pretty silly mistake.

Journeyman Geek

(also, congratulations on the new job)

Ano

Google was asked about this, and they responded "somebody dun goofed"

Journeyman Geek

people are human, except when they're dogs.

Anonymous

Thanks. I didn't even need to interview, because I was returning to Google within a couple of years, at the same level, and my manager vouched for me. They've got a very generous (and sensible) re-hiring process. :)

Ano

On the flip side, hey, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Journeyman Geek

03:38

nice!

@JeremyBanks sounds cool

(and heh, I MIGHT be contracting there at some point. Assuming that things work out)

Anonymous

Good luck. :)

Journeyman Geek

man, that I've lacked so far.

right now, I've got a company I did a short term contract with talking about a 3-6 month data centre gig there. Which is a job I've applied for a few times.

Ano

My dad no longer contracts at Google due to Singaporean management

Journeyman Geek

heh, singaporean management can be terrible.

user315433

Dale or Kathryn Lewallen

1

user315433

03:47

Do they want us to guess who is posting each time?

Journeyman Geek

yes?

Ano

@FTP Wikipedia has a strict "no sharing accounts" policy

user315433

Or maybe just can't deal with SE login/logout.

user315433

Maybe it's not shared. It could be one of them posting every time, they just don't want to say which one.

Journeyman Geek

> Subscriber certifies to Stack Exchange that Subscriber is an individual (i.e., not a corporate entity) at least 13 years of age.

technically that's the case here?

user315433

03:50

If we take "not a corporate entity" as the definition of "an individual"...

Journeyman Geek

unrelatedly

> All fee-based Services and virtual goods are provided “AS IS” with no warranties of any kind. Stack Exchange may modify and/or eliminate such fee-based Services at its discretion. Stack Exchange may share your personal information, including credit card information for certain transactions in accordance with our Privacy Policy. Subscriber understands and agrees that the payment for virtual goods grants Subscriber a limited license to use the virtual goods as specified on the Network.

user202362

I was on netflix for a month, then decided that there were not so many interesting movies that I want to watch. So I discontinued membership

Journeyman Geek

I see that and go "Stackexchange Lootboxes?"

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, that's very interesting wording.

user315433

Do they mean hats?

Anonymous

03:51

Seems like a weird way to say "~~careers~~ talent subscription".

Journeyman Geek

well, that's a fee based service?

Ano

@TelautonomousKitty You're not in the US, otherwise I'd say go for DVD.com

user315433

It's a virtual good.

Journeyman Geek

I don't recall any "virtual goods"

user315433

HAAATS

Journeyman Geek

03:53

Hats are free though

user315433

Probably standard verbiage from somewhere else.

Journeyman Geek

I'd guess its just standard boilerplate ;p

user315433

I tend to see more virtual bads than virtual goods on SE sites...

user315433

Which reminds me, haven't used the daily delete votes yet.

user202362

@Ano how does that help

Ano

04:38

@TelautonomousKitty Meaning?

user202362

doesn't matter which site, if there is no interesting thing to watch, then it's the same

Ano

7

Q: A machine can flag spam automatically. Can it do it better?

TL;DR: Charcoal is the organisation behind SmokeDetector. Since January 2017, we've been casting up to 3 flags automatically on posts that our systems are confident are spam. We'd like to increase that to 5 flags to reduce the time spam spends alive on the network. Who are you? Charcoal is a us...

discussion flags spam robots

ArtOfCode

@Ano I've rolled back your edit. Those changes were deliberately not made while we were composing the post, please don't try to override that.

Ano

04:54

@ArtOfCode Does it have to do with my addition of the text "on behalf of willing users"? If so, why not just remove that?

ArtOfCode

By my recollection, a number of the things you edited were changes you proposed in your gist fork. If you look at the comments under the gist, I explained why those didn't make it.

(and British -> American spelling edits are unnecessary. Both are valid on SE.)

Ano

@ArtOfCode Ah, those were posted much later, and I was not notified of your comment (due to my notification settings). Sorry for the confusion. Also, my browser kept flagging those as incorrect spellings. Again, I apologize.

ArtOfCode

Yeah, gists need notifications really

Ano

@ArtOfCode Also, I see many users who just read a first few sentences and just assume things. I'd recommend making it clear from the get-go that people are opting in. My first instinct is that you guys are using a bunch of dedicated bot accounts.

ArtOfCode

Eh, if people don't wanna read the whole thing that's on them. It's explained both in this post and the last one, and I'll explain it in comments if necessary.

Ano

04:59

@ArtOfCode Also, your comment says you don't need it in the TL;DR; I didn't put that in the TL;DR this time

ArtOfCode

huh?

Feeds

You can also just mash the keyboard at random, but you might end up with a gibberish name no one can pronounce.

Ano

@ArtOfCode "I left "on behalf" out because it's kinda unnecessary in the TL;DR"

I didn't put that text in the TL;DR this time.

ArtOfCode

eh

Ano

@ArtOfCode I was also tripped up by the use of spaces. I think we should use at least one type of separator; I'm sure Europeans are used to seeing the comma as a thousands separator from time to time. I wouldn't recommend using a separator that doesn't exist in both.

ArtOfCode

05:03

space definitely is used as a separator

Ano

@ArtOfCode In which locale is it commonly used?

ArtOfCode

@Ano definitely UK and US

less common than the comma, yes, but it's used

Ano

@ArtOfCode Never seen it used here before

ArtOfCode

okay

Ano

@ArtOfCode Also, unrelated: I was tripped up by what I thought was two numbers: "why two numbers? "29" and "592"? Oh, wait, he meant "29 thousand 592"..."

ArtOfCode

05:07

that's... not unrelated :P

Ano

Unrelated meaning "I'm not arguing for it to be changed, I was just stating something for the record"

ArtOfCode

fair

ArtOfCode

05:23

@Ano chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6741965#6741965

meta.stackexchange.com/revisions/307587/2

Ano

@ArtOfCode Okay, that was my browser's autocorrect - I did not make that edit myself. You'll notice that I didn't change "optimising" to "optimizing" - I guess it made that change when I changed the hyphen to a comma. I didn't even notice that until you pointed that out.

(Side note: my browser also autocorrected "optimising" to "optimizing" when typing the above message, but I didn't make any nearby edits so it didn't happen there)

23

Q: Automatically destroy unregistered users when their only post gets the red flag treatment

Unregistered (operative word #1) users with only one post (operative word #2) that got deleted by Community (operative word #3) after spam or offensive flags should be deleted/destroyed automatically. These posts are typically made by: hit and run trolls who'll never come back, and just waste...

feature-request users spam

(cc @JourneymanGeek)

user202362

05:43

json or xml?

ArtOfCode

json always

user202362

why?

ArtOfCode

less of a pain to parse

</opinion>

Ano

I though HTML was a pain to parse

Journeyman Geek

@Ano that's kind of in SO Corp's hands rather than Charcoal

Ano

05:51

@JourneymanGeek SE. Always SE. After all, their legal name is still "Stack Exchange, Inc."

Journeyman Geek

(also, as an aside, I've (privately) been opposed to what I consider too much autoflagging - so this is totally the "nay" answer for yay or nay)

Ano

Perhaps you'd want to give feedback to the request I linked above?

Journeyman Geek

lol

> Mods usually get around to these flags before the community casts enough flags to delete the post.

@Ano tbh, Its a much older feature request, and I don't see the point of bumping it in any way unless its necessary

Ano

Why not post an expanded version with more info and have the older one closed as a duplicate?

Journeyman Geek

cause... I don't like doing that?

Ano

05:56

@JourneymanGeek Why not? The post on getting a declined feature request reconsidered says that, and explain why the declination reason doesn't apply anymore

This isn't a declined request, but something similar

Journeyman Geek

@Ano nothing has changed on SE's end

Ano

@JourneymanGeek It's no longer the case that:

3 mins ago, by Journeyman Geek

> Mods usually get around to these flags before the community casts enough flags to delete the post.

Journeyman Geek

@Ano yup, but that's also part of a discussion I've been having with @ArtOfCode and @Undo over an extended period of time. I think we have diametrically opposite viewpoints on the automation of moderation tools (but not on the value of said tools).

And really the crux of the disagreement is "is it more important to get rid of spam quickly or is it more important to have the community engaged in doing their cleanup"

Ano

06:25

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 50 secs ago, by angussidney

Should someone leave a message in the TL telling Journeyman about the spammers-by-site page or the new site dashboard?

@JourneymanGeek

Journeyman Geek

erm, that's kind of a thing I'd not be happy to rely on.

Ano

@JourneymanGeek Perhaps you want to look at the discussion taking place there in CHQ?

Journeyman Geek

errrrm Do I?

Ano

@JourneymanGeek Yes you do. They're discussing you in particular.

Journeyman Geek

Well, I'm sure they can let me know if there's anything I need to know

angussidney

06:30

By the way, no hard feelings, we're just trying to keep a balance between showing you the solutions we've come up with and bombarding you with arguments :)

Ano

@JourneymanGeek They're discussing whether you like to be pinged of something or not. If I were in the same position I'd want to explain that directly rather than have them speculate and do it wrong.

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 34 secs ago, by quartata

I find the "get rid of spam quickly vs have the community involved in their cleanup" to be especially weird. not sure if we can compromise if that's his viewpoint...

Journeyman Geek

@Ano or whether they need to.

@Ano so, I'm sure that folks can give me a headsup if needed.

Anonymous

The page build failed for the `master` branch with the following error:

Page build timed out. Please try again later. For more information, see https://help.github.com/articles/troubleshooting-github-pages-builds/.

Anonymous

I guess shoving a hundred thousand files into GitHub pages wasn't the best idea.

Ano

@JourneymanGeek By the way, I didn't initially say "chime in", I said "look at"

Journeyman Geek

06:33

the point of the meta post was both to encourage discussion on their end, and provide an alternative view point.

Anonymous

I was getting too clever and creating like 4 redirects for each page (/q/1, questions/1/, a/1, etc) and that massively increased the number of files. Getting rid of that might fix it.

Ano

@JourneymanGeek I can't cross-post messages between there and here for too long...

Journeyman Geek

Considering its easy to find me on the network they can ping me

ArtOfCode

@Ano You don't need to.

Journeyman Geek

so don't!

Rob

06:34

@Ano The relevant discussion is taking place on the meta post. There's no need to keep cross posting here when it's clear they're not interested in discussing in chat.

Journeyman Geek

yup

@Rob tbh I kinda want to keep it to meta, ironically due to a few conversations we've had in the past behind closed doors ;p

ArtOfCode

Our opinions may differ but they're both valid viewpoints. From the Charcoal end, we'll do what we can to reconcile them, but there comes a point where it's better to just recognise that people are entitled to opinions whether we agree with them or not.

2

Journeyman Geek

(also, I've talked to @ArtOfCode in great detail about this)

ArtOfCode

great great detail

Journeyman Geek

I'm supportive of smokey, just kind of have a difference of opinion on ... can we say implimentational specifics?

ArtOfCode

06:37

Not sure it's about implementation (or is it?). I think it's more philosophical differences on how spam should be handled and by who.

Journeyman Geek

da

Ano

"behind closed doors"...so is that why I was unaware of those chats?

Journeyman Geek

and neither of it is really wrong.

ArtOfCode

If it's implementation differences, it stands to reason that there'd be something we could change about the implementation of 5 flags to make it acceptable... which I don't think there is, for you?

Journeyman Geek

well, I'm not directly aware of what charcoal talks about unless say, it gets mentioned.

@ArtOfCode I'd lean towards status quo or less, personally. Or at the very least have that opt in.

which is kind of the ideal for me

quartata

06:38

hey -- just wanted to say that my thing up there was taken a little bit out of context. We want a compromise

Journeyman Geek

Some sites actually feel like they need the ton of flags

quartata

I don't mean that we shouldn't bother

Journeyman Geek

@quartata heh, That is precisely why I didn't get baited ;p

quartata

I don't pay much attention to Tavern except when something is broken so I was unaware that this was getting unceremoniously splattered across both rooms

Journeyman Geek

@quartata heh, ya, that wasn't nice. @Ano

Ano

06:40

@JourneymanGeek Me or him?

Journeyman Geek

and that's kind of why I went "folks know where to find me" ;p

you

I figure at some point, folks could go "hey, so... erm... ya, we were talking about you in $channel"

quartata

I mean it's also not nice to be nitpicking your argument in another room so eh you know

Ano

Hey, they were discussing about letting you know of something, so I figured just do it now and get it over with

Journeyman Geek

Now, I might actually be tempted to pop into charcoal about the "we have a control panel" thing. Simply in the sense that most mods arn't aware of the full extent of tools they have (myself included!) and needing to pop out to check something that's semi non critical on a external site is poor workflow.

@Ano only if you're a person involved.

@quartata the nitpicking is fine.

I think I've literally heard all those specific arguements. And I'm sure @ArtOfCode has heard ones similar to mine as well.

Ano

7 mins ago, by Ano

"behind closed doors"...so is that why I was unaware of those chats?

Journeyman Geek

06:44

@Ano this is plausible

ArtOfCode

@JourneymanGeek which control panel? There's the new site dashboard

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode that thing

ArtOfCode

Many shinies on that

quartata

That's brand new. You're not expected to know about it :P

Journeyman Geek

yup, but that's literally another thing to monitor. And well, I occationally find that the mod learning curve's steep?

quartata

06:46

we kinda rolled it out because of this

the spammers by site thing has been around for a while though

Journeyman Geek

@quartata the 5 flags or ...

ah

ArtOfCode

@quartata kinda. A bunch of mods have been asking for it for a while.

quartata

The BI incident prompted it mostly

ArtOfCode

Yeah, it's not a thing that everyone's going to know about or use, but it's useful to have it there

angussidney

The general idea is to have everything that a moderator wants in one page, so we don't have all this fragmentation

It is, of course, unreasonable to expect every mod to know about a secret page which you can only get the link for if you ask in the TL

ArtOfCode

06:51

@angussidney the new one's linked from the homepage :P

angussidney

Exactly

quartata

Could always go through config/routes.rb :p

Journeyman Geek

assuming a mod knows about the home page - which kinda comes into an "implicit" complaint I think has come up about charcoal/sd?

that a bunch of stuff is kind of "we think its better, so we're doing it like that?"

ArtOfCode

very much an explicit complaint in some cases

Journeyman Geek

ya, but its very hard to bring up without being controversial

which is a pain in the rear cause you guys are doing good work

angussidney

06:53

@JourneymanGeek I know it's not exactly perfect, but I think that an attempt to make it easier for mods is better than nothing

ArtOfCode

I'd like to fix that, but I'm not sure I know how. Open to suggestions. I try to make our standpoint "based on our experience we think this is the best way" rather than "your opinion is invalid", but it doesn't come across like that sometimes.

angussidney

We're open to suggestions BTW

Journeyman Geek

(which is kind of why I suggested having adjusting the auto-flag count upwards opt in)

Undo

Autoflagging will almost certainly be opt out if the mSE post goes well. The opt out process will likely be a simple meta post with community consensus.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo which essentially makes the decision for the site in many cases.

ArtOfCode

06:56

@JourneymanGeek It does, but I was talking about this in CHQ a moment ago. Hold on, lemme get a link

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 13 mins ago, by ArtOfCode

@Rob Problem with opt-in is that lots of smaller sites won't be able to build significant community support on meta as opposed to apathy - so turning it on on those sites would lead to questions about whether we have permission from the community to do it. It's easier to make it default-on with an easy offer to turn it off.

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 13 mins ago, by ArtOfCode

Turning it off is easier to justify in the face of a community "eh" than turning it on.

Undo

Yes. Turns out posting on 170ish sites is not doable. We're planning to have this one featured across every sidebar on every site.

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode this is where, let the mods decide.

Undo

Even less doable, from recent events.

Journeyman Geek

Cause this is literally unilaterally deciding for everyone.

Ano

Maybe it's just better to have this discussion in CHQ than to fork it across multiple rooms?

ArtOfCode

06:57

@JourneymanGeek not sure I'm comfortable with that, but I can't articulate why

Journeyman Geek

and well, as a mod, I'm not ok about it.

ArtOfCode

@JourneymanGeek It's a decision that affects all sites provided the meta post goes well. If a site wants to turn it off, we're happy to do that.

Undo

@JourneymanGeek You're welcome to post on your sites asking for consensus to shut it off. That's been the policy forever.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo I don't feel its your decision to make?

Undo

Not mine, no. mSE can, though.

Journeyman Geek

06:59

er... no?

Unless someone who's a CM or dev explicitly says yes I don't feel that's good enough

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