@Catija Well, as noted, it is kinda intended feature that they will not be able to get upvoted too. If they are harmful and need to get closed, they are certainly by no means "useful", and we should only upvote useful and showing research effort questions.

My experience from RPG.SE, though limited, says that reopen wars are rather rare

But when they happen, I would say that it is a good time to take the question to Meta and find what is so wrong with it.

Rather than have the war going on.

About revoking votes -- yes, we don't know what was the reason of the downvote. But the intent is that the question gets a second chance.

@Baskakov_Dmitriy You're assuming voting in a perfect world where everyone is objective. Lots of people vote just because they like or dislike the topic the question is about.

Well, this sounds like a good reason to clean them up and give questions a real second chance.

Except you're not clearing anything other than dvs... even if you block both, you're not clearing both. If it's really a new start, they all need to be cleared and the voters need to be able to vote on the question again.

Fair enough.

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/…

TBH, that is very weird

Unless there was a policy change, that should not happen.

stackoverflow.com/search?tab=votes&q=closed%3ayes

Uh... no.

rpg.stackexchange.com/search?tab=votes&q=closed%3ayes

Not saying "I did not expect that from a site about smth subjective in its nature", but rather "This is a problem that needs to be solved"

Note that RPG.SE did have policy changes

People like to upvote shitty questions that they like because they like them.

Tool requests and game recommendation requests were once legal, but not anymore

How recently? There are a bunch there from 2016

Mid 2015 rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5747/…

Took some time for things to settle down

A lot of people were (and are) against the ban

Including me

But we turn out to be a tiny minority

Some closed questions are borderline cases

This, for example: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/76526/…

That was opened and reclosed.

Indeed

IMO, worth bringing up on Meta

But this one is one of the cases where a good portion of people really find it useful.

While some others don't

Such situations happen, but are rather rare

Depends on the site.

Perhaps; my experience outside of RPG.SE is extremely limited

You should see it better as you are active on bigger amount of sites

I'm active on weird sites.

Anyway, I think that such situations, no matter how often do they happen, indicate a problem.

The main problem of Interpersonal, if you ask me, is that I would VTC the whole site due to being better suited for a forum than for an SE site

You're not the only one who feels that way.

Everything is very subjective, culture- and preference-dependent etc.

I don't think that it is not useful -- it is

And I have upvoted some stuff on it

And benefited from some

Well... culture dependent isn't largely different than game dependency on RPG.

The rules for one game are different than another.

RPG is pretty subjective at times, I would guess... though I have no personal knowledge.

I would rather say, playstyle-dependent

You'd say that D&D rules are the same as Everquest or Elfquest or... I don't know.... I don't even know that those are all things.

You can objectively judge what the rules are, and how should smth be played if you read the rules exactly as they are (Rules-as-written), but once you touch the grounds of "How the game is actually fun", you are likely doomed.

Because there are 1000 playstyles, as there are thousands of cultures.

Like putting money on Free Parking in Monopoly ;)

RPG.SE is one of the borderline cases of subjective and objective SEs

Subjective stuff seems to be less welcome there than it was before I came

You can objectively prove what the rules are

You can say that something was unfun in your experience because of smth

But you cannot just argue which way to play something is better.

Yeah, I think one of the mods has linked me to that discussion over there before...

Probably doppel

@Catija It also seems like different SEs can treat reopen wars differently

The sole fact that we have this question on our Meta makes me think that any site has a right to have their own policy about it

@Baskakov_Dmitriy actually - cracking down on the subjective seems to be a pretty common (and controversial) thing on SEs

The question is, how subjective?

ideally questions shouldn't be requiring subject answers at all. We really kinda one answer to solve them all (and into the darkness bind them?)

(not I'm not on RPG.se and haven't RPed in over a decade so I might be talking out my arse here)

Where exactly is the line between primarily opinion-based and "generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience"?

Detail!

Different web-sites seem (from my limited knowledge) to have their own lines

And one can learn to feel it with experience

What is ok on one site, like Sci-Fi SE, would be quickly closed on RPG.SE

This makes Sci-Fi a mess

Its also worth remembering we've essentially taken a tool meant for a specific purpose (developer Q&A) and used it for a wide range of topics, which has spread.

Well, no

It makes Sci Fi ... its own site

A mess from the point of view of RPG.SE

The best example is the Russian.SE

You don't matter ;p

(Which is in English)

And its counterpart that is in Russian

The English one is actually good

@Baskakov_Dmitriy ah, but russian is allowed?

The Russian one is a mess

Yep, it is

You mean the site for native Russian speakers asking about Russian language things?

But that's the sort of thing the CM team (and russian still has its native russian speaking CM) and mods need to hash out

The point is, the "English" site covers it all

(The "English" version of Russian.SE)

And works well

Most questions are by Russian learners

But there are some questions by native speakers

They are usually about issues that a beginner would likely not understand anyway, so they can be in Russian

But it is considered better to ask in English if it can be useful for non-native speakers

The Russian analogue is... a piece of hell

Aren't there two Russian language sites?

It is full of Russian kids who are too lazy to do their homework

To be clear -- this is the site in English russian.stackexchange.com

It is good, it has strictly-enforced rules

And a strong community

This is a piece of hell: rus.stackexchange.com

Русский язык

They don't seem to have any parts of SE etiquette strongly enforced

It really feels like a typical forum

There are some good questions

But most are really bad

The reason to touch those two web-sites is that SE rules exist for a reason.

If you take a tool that is good for questions about coding if used with said rules, it might also work for Interpersonal issues, RPGs, Parenting, Russian language. It might.

But if you don't use the rules, the user manual that comes with the tool, the results may vary.

Back to my initial suggestion: it is intended to be a part of the tool, not the user manual for that tool.

If we start to treat reopening the question like it gets a second life, cleaning up all the votes, it might raise issues.

ehh

Might be likely better to just block any voting during the "on hold" period, perhaps temporarily suspending the downvotes by the VTCers. But perhaps not.

We're doubly armchair quarterbacking

We are talking about this: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6514143#6514143

I am working on a Meta proposal

And @Catija has told that it while it would work in the ideal world where everyone is objective in their voting, it would fail on situations where the vote means "I (don't) like this" and nothing more

@Catija its default, I don't think SE actually checks for valid email addresses (and that's trivially automatable anyway...)

@JourneymanGeek I was being arch. :P

@Baskakov_Dmitriy SE's vote weight kinda accounts for that by having downvotes being -2 and upvotes being +5

@Catija arch?

@JourneymanGeek Kinda.

It was a joke...

ahh ok

@JourneymanGeek +5... talking about questions here.

But, yes... I already said that.

@Catija Is it a word play with some German word that differs by one character?

Unrelatedly, my question on better mod tools for profile spammer nukeing has 1 downvote. I'd like to think its the spammer ;p

@Baskakov_Dmitriy No.

@JourneymanGeek I'm angry at you... I was hoping to maybe have more rep than you on MSE this week but you just had to go and ask that question ;)

@Catija ;p

@Catija I almost added a angry goat picture.

Decided not to cause I couldn't fit it in in a way I was happy with

I'm not sure what to think, though... I have all upvotes last I checked...