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12:11 AM
Of COURSE you don't! You're a moderator! Expecting you to "buy it" is like expecting a police department to find a cop in the wrong for shooting an unarmed civilian! How often do you expect THAT to happen?
Reminds me of the time when I mentioned that we should have transparent little bins at train station some 10 years because of the bomb scares that there were no bins at train stations, and my colleague was like 'what are we going to do with transparent little bins?'
Guess what, now we have transparent little bins at train stations
And many years ago I guessed that people should get money back for exercising. And guess what? Now it's implemented by health insurance companies.
And the couple of times when my idea got 'borrowed' after I pitched them ...
12:29 AM
I'm sure the government has surveillance just on you so as to find the best policies to implement.
squash one bug, get something to work, find another bug... cycle repeats.... i HATE Android
why is it so complicated to clear a listview
@bjb568 the sad thing is that, if it did, those policies would have probably been implemented much earlier
I was literally laughed at for telling such ideas
@DamienPaul It shouldn't be? stackoverflow.com/a/7400519/2581872
12:40 AM
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I must be dumb, can't quite figure out where that goes
I need all the listview to be cleared
1:02 AM
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@hichris123 didn't work
Android is uselessly complicated I am finding - thankfully I will not be required to use it after this project
Can't really help you then, sorry. :P It's been a long time since I tried to deal with Android stuff.
3 hours later…
1 hour later…
4:53 AM
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5:18 AM
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5:28 AM
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6:21 AM
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6:56 AM
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7:13 AM
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7:42 AM
@Telkitty Ideas that get implemented are 1% creation, 75 % money and 30% knowing the right persons
@Derpy 106%?
@Telkitty If Willy Wonka can do percentages that add up to 105%, I don't see why I can't go even further and reach 106.
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I was pointing out, not saying that you can't
8:08 AM
in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 2 days ago, by Telkitty
also why do we have to work harder than our ancestors? Aren't machines and computers save us for 'better' things ... like innovation?
@Derpy there is nothing new, you must have thought about that right?
9:08 AM
@Telkitty well, since you asked, here is a little slice of life episode. When I was very little and going to elementary school, I was pretty amazed by those dynamo you had on bikes that would lit a light when you made the wheel turn....
@Telkitty In theory they were for that. In practice, they make for faster and more intensive wealth aggregation - which means everybody else (the ones without hereditary, self increasing wealth) now have to be better then the machines and provide more value then a comparable machine to still be worth employing.
So, I drawn a nice plan. You took a candle, put it under a glass of water and above the glass you have a pinwheel attached to a dynamo.... The vapor would rise and make the pinwheel turn and lit your light.
"This is brilliant! I will be rich"... those was my though.
Can I interest you in some solar roadways?
Then, I discovered that thermal power stations had already be invented...
The PS10 Solar Power Plant (Spanish: Planta Solar 10), is the world's first commercial concentrating solar power tower operating near Seville, in Andalusia, Spain. The 11 megawatt (MW) solar power tower produces electricity with 624 large movable mirrors called heliostats. It took four years to build and so far cost €35 million (US$46 million). PS10 produces about 23,400 megawatt-hours (MW·h) per year, for which it receives €271 (US$360) per MW·h under its power purchase agreement, equating to a revenue of €6.3 million per year. == Suppliers == The mirrors were delivered by Abengoa, the s...
9:16 AM
It also seemed that my related idea to use vapor to move a vehicle was stolen "some years before" by a guy called Richard Trevithick.
I promised myself I would never forgive him.
I still think he must certainly be a time-traveling criminal from a far away future than came to my era, stole my idea and then went back again even further to make it profit before I could
(.... this could actually be a funny plot for a book)
1 hour later…
10:23 AM
@Bart start from here, go forward.
You will find this very funny, trust me.
The Energy Catalyzer (also called E-Cat) is claimed to be a cold fusion reactor which was devised by inventor Andrea Rossi with support from physicist Sergio Focardi. An Italian patent, which received a formal but not a technical examination, describes the apparatus as a "process and equipment to obtain exothermal reactions, in particular from nickel and hydrogen". Rossi and Focardi said the device worked by infusing heated hydrogen into nickel powder, transmuting it into copper and producing excess heat. The international patent application received an unfavorable international preliminary report...
I'm already laughing at E-Cat
10:40 AM
14 messages moved to Chimney
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11:07 AM
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11:27 AM
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A Monero mod decided to start Community Promotion Ad by copying the standard meta post of this kind...
Q: Community Promotion Ads - 2016

2quick 4uIt's 2016 now, and we've made some changes to the sidebar size. As such, we can now restart the Community Promotion Ads for 2016! Keep in mind, we have updated some of the guidelines compared to previously - the changes are marked in bold in the Image Requirements section. What are Community Pr...

@zaq They're 2quick4u
I love the irony of the name
11:49 AM
No, you can't do it. Only SE employee (usually CM like Grace Note) can start Community Ads on a site, as it requires special template to be added. (Please delete that "question") — Shadow Wizard 4 mins ago
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Quite honestly, I think the easiest way to solve this would be to remove voting to close entirely for all but the most popular questions. For your average... Let's say -∞ to 5 score question... it would remain open as long as there is one more privileged person interested in it than there are folks who dislike it; only once it'd managed to gain some serious traction would folks have to vote to close or reopen it. Vote-to-close was an expedient solution for a time when there were no limits on how often you could vote and folks were fixated on popular fluff... — Shog9 ♦ 11 hours ago
12:05 PM
Good idea. For low-activity tags it means no closing, period. (Since there are no gold tag badges, and nothing ever gets above 5 in score).
But in effect, this is how they operate already. A close flag is cast... it creates a review task... in a few days an overworked reviewer sees it and casts a close vote... a few more days, another reviewer reads it, shrugs and presses "skip"... several more days, the flag and vote expire and things are back to Stage 1, with a bit of time wasted by a few people.
@Shog9 is it possible to make the tag employee-only on all meta sites, to prevent mistakes such as this?
I say we try and hide user names and rep scores on post, just to see what that would cause....
Eh. I think when a site's mod doesn't know how the system works and is sloppy enough to copy an employee's post without removing "we did" statements... there's a bigger problem and that should be evident.
@zaq nah, it was honest mistake IMO, that can happen to anyone, i.e. simple misunderstanding of the concept.
He thought it always exists, and just needing meta question with the proper answers.
12:23 PM
@zaq but I'd replace the restriction "score > 5" with "has > 5 up/down votes in total". This is an indicator of attention the question gets. A lot of negative attention can mean something needs to be removed, but it won't be roomba'd if there is an answer.
Unless this change is coupled to a roomba upgrade.
Imo we need to close more questions, not less
and single high rep users shouldnt be able to open them so they can answer
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who says that we need more questions, we need more answers & better answers :p
What do we want? Answers! When do we want them? Better! ... no wait ...
12:34 PM
It's sad that folks can no longer have Careers in software industry. They just sell their Talent to get a Job.
points a remote control at @Bart, tries to switch to another show
The TV Guide said "Drama".
Where are the tears? Where are the rants about the downvotes?
Glasses don't have tears
But indeed, this chat has become fairly uneventful
@Bart <Rarity>You are so.... démodé, darling. Why, let me show you the latest trends.</Rarity>
Is the underwater portion of an iceberg a metaphor for a yet-unseen problem that's larger than one might think?
12:46 PM
Generally, something ominous. This is what I think of when I see the Developer Story problem.
@zaq problem? Why is it a problem? (Not that I'm a fan of it, but wonder what's your reasoning)
@zaq yep, it is.
"The candidate's resume looks bright, but they have a hidden dark side that may sink your company"
12:49 PM
@zaq where is it quoted from? Up to this moment I didn't realize it's an iceberg, lol. But it's still nice...
Not a quote, that's my reading of the Dev Story banner.
@Derpy Should I be glad that I don't recognize either of two logos?
@zaq you mean that the company may not be happy to hire the creators of Legends Of Equestria?
@zaq yep, you should.
@zaq s/problem/banner/
1:02 PM
Problems, problems everywhere. Too much time on Meta.
I still wonder if Community's Developer Story is intentional joke, or kind of bug/overlook.
(Shog didn't reply)
Probably intentional, Nick Craver earlier gave it Not A Robot, so this could be another of his easter eggs.
@zaq yeah, fits Nick.
> `Yes, that's it,' said the Hatter with a sigh: `it's always tea-time, and we've no time to wash the things between whiles.'
`Then you keep moving round, I suppose?' said Alice.
`Exactly so,' said the Hatter: `as the things get used up.'
`But what happens when you come to the beginning again?' Alice ventured to ask.
`Suppose we change the subject,' the March Hare interrupted, yawning.
`I'm getting tired of this. I vote that @Bart tells us a story.'
`I'm getting tired of this. I vote that @Bart sings us a song.'
1:12 PM
`I'm getting tired of this. I vote that @Bart bring us some cupcakes.'
(yep, this one should be better)
(but it is also probably best to stop the pings here)
(at least until Bart replies)
@Derpy true
@Shog9 How do you imagine that with the single close/reopen votes? You'd have to set the rep requirement so high that 90% of current close voters would not be able to anymore
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@Magisch would we?
@Shog9 Imo if its single votes for close/reopen it would have to be at least 50k if not 100k if all you gate it by is rep
Pitfalls of gating by the one indicator of all the stats we track that is maybe least corresponding with ability to moderate.
2:08 PM
The major, major flaw in vote-to-close has always been smaller tags and smaller sites
smaller sites, we lower the rep threshold
smaller tags...
Imagine if you had the current rep limits for that "Oh, I could answer that dupe reopens"
@Magisch what do you think is the bigger problem: dups getting reopened, or dups not getting closed at all?
As is its damn demoralizing that you see some obviously off topic bs get 5+ answers in the time it takes to rally the close voters necessary
ain't like folks don't answer dups today
@Shog9 The problem would be under your system single users (some high rep users defiantly and openly don't follow the off topic rules) could negate any moderation the community puts forth
2:09 PM
hard enough to even identify a duplicate before it gets answered in a lot of cases; waiting for five votes makes it even more likely that it'll get answered.
imagine you have one guy who just doesnt believe in closing trash
after fgitwing enough dupes suddenly he has sole authority to reopen at will and harvest more rep that way
@Magisch ...who gets one vote per question and only N votes per day.
worst-case, requires two people to close any post he interacts with
which is still 3 less than today
after he posted his answer
the only way that works is that if you made it so that if any question is closed any rep gained from its answers is reverted retroactively
and thats a whole nother can of worms
@Shog9 Maybe make it that non-dupe closed Qs take 2 votes to reopen
Questions not being reopened enough isn't a problem imo. Them not being closed enough is
@Magisch what's the point of closing?
@Shog9 twofold
one don't waste time of potential answerers by having them re-discover that a question isn't worth answering when opening it
two to prevent people asking bad questions from getting rewarded (= answered) for their site-damaging behavior.
2:17 PM
you missed the rather obvious one
Basicly the idea is that bad questions without answers get closed and downvoted maybe once or twice and then disappear into the roomba
thats the ideal scenario
closing prevents answering
hence point 2
if anyone above X rep can reopen single handedly you may as well just not make closing effect them
so does deletion of course
because it doesnt in practice
2:18 PM
we could just delete questions
This is all hypothethicals anyways
unlike closing, deletion blocks answering and removes all rep gains
a change this big would take years to go through anyways
which better satisfies your two rationales
so why do we close?
multiple meta posts, a endless discussion from both sides, you know, the works
@Shog9 on the one off chance OP comes back and edits it into shape
which is why the delay between closing and the roomba exists
2:20 PM
right. We close so that questions can be reopened.
not primarily
Idk about you but about 95% of questions I close end up deleted I'd wager
we close, rather than simply delete, because closed questions can be reopened
Letting single people reopen is still dangerous though
granted, folks who hate closing tend to ignore this fact
and folks who love closing love to ignore it as well
but the system does not really exist for its own sake
@Shog9 surely you know this, but there are lots of high rep users who care absolutely nothing about the quality of this site and just want to answer whatever gives the most points.
And these are the people you want to entrust the site's moderation to without peer review
2:24 PM
hey @Shog9
But there are also the people who don't try to answer any questions and just want to "uphold" the rules. There's people on both sides of the spectrum.
the rules are there to be upheld and have been made for a purpose
the goal should be to get as much compliance with them as possible
Well, we're short of that right now
It's been a matter of prioritization for years - try to get rid of the worst
Which also means less reopening, because... Most of what gets closed can't be fixed
Also means lots of stuff that can be fixed doesn't get closed, doesn't get fixed
I'm the biggest challenge facing SE right now is the torrent of awful demotivating and drowning out experts
new plan: get Magisch
2:36 PM
@Shog9 how much does he cost?
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Auto correct from imo <_<
@ShadowWizard about 500 euro a month if you ask my current employer
2:55 PM
@Magisch cheap!
Final close vote needed here, with -9 it's off the radar aka home page.
(so might stick around for long hours and even days)
@Shog9 I'm floating like you, so you'd have a hard time catching me
I have a net
But you're tilted so you're slower
seriously though how I know SE changes to closing things would take like 2-3 years to get implemented and discussed through :p
Better late than never...
3:18 PM
So, it looks like changes to closing would have to be bundled with changes to deletion.
3:29 PM
Allow deletion votes to be cast on questions where the total number of upvotes on question and its answers is <= 5.
(Even if not closed.)
It's the total number of upvotes, not total score. To safeguard against mob-downvoting.
Also, disable close votes on such questions. If they are bad, and have nothing particularly notable about them, they should simply be deleted.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Unable to Connect to Windows Server 2012 VPN using L2TP by katetaylor on superuser.com
3:44 PM
> There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.
<-- not attempting to answer any questions, at least for the time being
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4:00 PM
I'd like to answer some more questions, but when ever I get motivated and browse I get 10-11 bad qs in and remember again that I have to clean up some more
Looks like navigation among questions is a problem, then. One shouldn't have to browse... just get a sample of a few that are probably not disgusting.
Like the "interesting" sort but within a tag or a few.
4:53 PM
Say, have a question for some knowledgeable person.
If you're about to cap the 200 rep and you give away a 50 rep bounty, do you cap at 200 incoming or 200 combined (250 incoming)?
5:10 PM
Okay, never mind, found the answer at meta.stackexchange.com/questions/117622/…
5:50 PM
Hey let's launch the.... Nope, wait, 11th hour, have to change the domain for security reason. Dammit. There goes my day.
For the record: after a full day of mocking all the new top level domains, @kylembrandt and I just had to buy one. Karma's a bitch.
Buying a TLD? Is that .overflow or .stack or...
@zaq .porblem
5:56 PM
@Undo Wow, you killed him even here
Is .idk available? Or .plzhelp
@Magisch Of course
@zaq .urgant
That's be a boost to the number of posts
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6:28 PM
Meta.math periodically gets concerned about "urgent" in titles, most recent incarnation meta.math.stackexchange.com/q/25134. I never saw them as a problem: it's a useful indication of what kind of question it is. Suppressing it would suppress information.
@zaq Well, that's another POV I guess.
When a site gets 600+ questions per day, one tends to like whatever it is that helps in triaging questions without opening them.
I guess you either fix all the titles, or fix none.
Being left in the middle does waste some time.
Of the by-standers, and the editors.
I thought of a twisted reality where chem also gets that many questions.
I'd rather fix things that are worth fixing, and delete the rest.
My beloved site . . .
@zaq You're one side of the spectrum, and the guy that never deletes for whatever reason is the other. That's why the site works. None of you are more than a voice. The only problem here is that the majority is shifted towards the no-delete thing, which is why a lot of people on, say, chem or phys, think of math.SE as a wasteland. Including myself.
6:35 PM
I'm not planted at one point of the spectrum... In particular, I began to favor implicit deletion over explicit actions.
If a question never gets an answer, it's as good as closed. If in addition, it never gets read after a day or two, it's as good as deleted.
SE had good ideas about reducing visibility of certain questions, but never went beyond the homepage of one site. And the homepage is totally not what I look at, so that was disappointing.
7:18 PM
Q: What should the system be deleting automatically that it already isn't?

Shog9So this question got me thinking... We have several automatic processes in place for cleaning up cruft, deleting questions that are very unlikely to help anyone else. They're fairly conservative though; an awful lot of lousy questions hang around much longer, occasionally cropping up to annoy fo...

Huh, there's also this one:
Q: We should clean up posts that should be improved but haven't been and won't be

Shog9It's been about 5 months since we started testing Triage. There've been a fair number of hiccups, and there's still plenty of work to be done refining the criteria, but at this point I think the process is working pretty well: with over 1800 questions reviewed every day on average (over 20% of al...

That was over-reaching, it never had a chance.
I upvoted it apparently but yet I have no recollection of that post.
That was back when Triage seemed relevant; i.e., long ago
7:21 PM
Deleting posts just because some reviewers clicked "needs improvement/editing" (or whatever that button is called nowadays), when their deity only knows what they meant by that...
Maybe they meant the author writes i in lowercase.
Triage can probably help. It's just a question of how much and is it worth the effort.
Maybe the rep restriction should've been 500-2000. That way higher rep users didn't waste their time.
It's kind of hard to decide whether a post is answerable when you don't work with the technology involved. Yeah, there's skip. But Triage only makes sense when it's fast. If reviewers are waiting for an expert in farbizzle.js to show up, might as well drop the reviewing. Of course in reality they don't.
I could honestly see replacing "First Posts" with Triage on most sites. Having both of them is a waste of folks' time though. — Shog9 ♦ 18 hours ago
@zaq But some posts are just easily detectible as not enough info, off-topic, etc. Give two options: should be closed or meh.
7:30 PM
Yes, reroute the middle button to Looks OK (just to reduce resistance to clicking OK on a "meh" post). Ditch the sad HIQ.
But that's still a lot of reviewing, and the gain is still unclear because what do I need the homepage for?
Just fishing for things to close in a stream of questions? Thanks, got better things to do.
I'd almost go as far as to say some number of should be closed -> automatically closed. Or gives an automatic downvote or something like that.
I can give downvotes without a review queue...
Other people think it's mean though so they don't. But the former makes more sense to me: if x people think it's bad, just make it so it disappears quickly.
7:40 PM
When Google sees someone opening a page from search results and quickly closing it without interaction (coming back), they take it as a -1 for the page.
Visitors don't need to vote up, down, or sideways.... they still get directed to places they want.
That requires visitors to actually find it though. Which, for a decent amount of posts, they probably will only do once in a blue moon...
I hadn't realized how much I enjoy you two talking meta stuff. Go on
never mind, was a temporary glitch
@hichris123 But the bad part is "meh". The thing that drains out the will to participate is not spam or outrageously off-topic posts... it's a thousand paper cuts, inflicted by someone's incompetence or desperation. Of which there is always more than one can handle.
7:54 PM
Speaking of incompetence and desperation, I have a faculty meeting to attend. cya
@zaq Hmm, fair. But then couple that with some roomba task that deletes meh questions with little activity...
Maybe? I don't know, that might just stop some of the pain.
8:57 PM
9:22 PM
Just occurred to me, that when I posted an opinion/suggestion (as an answer), that I was out of line for presuming to make any suggestion - mainly due to me being here for a very short period of time (coupled with very low rep). Apologies for that!
9:33 PM
Ok, sure ... don't let it happen again ???? ...
ultimate level for tr011s - the 1337 level, when mods and CMs go around you ...
10:00 PM
The coffee steam is the best part. The angle between monitors seems excessive, unless one is trying to set up some VR experience on the cheap.
Red signals passion, love ... and bloodshed. The red implies the ferocity the software engineer would hit the keyboard after drinking it!
also such a thick and short keyboard
10:40 PM
I'm inclined to migrate this to meta.SE .
Q: Please add \( \) to delimiters for inline MathJax

Jason S(see also Inline LaTeX doesn't seem to work) I see that this site uses the nonstandard \$ delimiters to MathJax rather than \( and \) which are used in most other sites. Since MathJax allows multiple delimiters, and asymmetrical delimiters are more robust, could you add these? syntax as per htt...

10:59 PM
For one thing, \$ \$ is specific to Electrical Engineering
For another, I've never ever seen \( \) on any SE site.
But the objection to proposal is likely to be SE-wide. The characters [ ] ( ) have a special meaning in Markdown; formatting of links. Therefore, one must be able to enter them so that they are understood literally; in Markdown this means escaping by \: \[ \] \( \). And this would directly clash with the proposal.
@hichris123 It's the "right" way to do inline LaTeX formulas. But... not so often followed.
Ah. So more of a TeX thing than a MathJax thing?
In LaTeX, $$ ... $$ are deprecated in favor of [ .. ]. I certainly avoid $$ .. $$ there. I can't be bothered to enter \(...\) though, too much typing.
11:03 PM
@hichris123 LaTeX thing, not TeX thing. \( \) don't exist in TeX, they were added by LaTeX.
Shows you how much I know about all of that...
Well, you're less than half the age of TeX, so pass granted.
Some people like Doorknob (who is unpingable) use TeX/LaTeX for papers, so...
It's rare that someone would encounter an actual TeX document these days. It's nearly always LaTeX. But then people start using them as synonyms, etc.
Why would you even use TeX now adays? Stuck in your old ways?
11:10 PM
As opposed to...
TeX is still alive, as the lower-level thing that LaTeX and other things like ConTeXt wrap around.
It's just that using plain TeX isn't practical for complex documents. No automatic enumeration of chapters/sections/formulas/etc, all this stuff appeared later in LaTeX.
Oh, I see.
BTW I'm currently grading homework that's submitted online in LaTeX. And is graded by me editing in the notes and grades...
We finally use Canvas for an LMS. Although it's not great in the first place...
11:40 PM
I use our CMS (Blackboard) for three things: posting grades, collecting/grading homework that's not in LaTeX (e.g., Matlab scripts), and sending classroster email. A hundred other features are mostly worthless. And even the email is borked, the text-entering box does some weird invisible character insertions for no good reason, breaking links in emails. Or maybe HTML formatting with <span>, same effect.
@SmokeDetector notspam

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