Tavern on the Meta - 2015-08-15 (page 4 of 4)

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user259867

8:05 PM

Code Review got an increase of post length limit:

user259867

More seriously, the limit has been raised to 65536 from 30000. — Chris Jester-Young ♦ 2 hours ago

Wait, it wasn't 32768? That would have been a proper round number :-)

user259867

"Design-independent graduation" includes migration paths... I'm more and more inclined to think of question migration is an anti-feature. A migrated question loses out on all the help from /ask page (duplicate suggestions, correct tags). If the OP actually posted the question again, they'd be better off as a result.

user259867

And in many cases, a misplaced question is a result of someone throwing their problem in every textarea (not only at SE). They get an answer somewhere, and are gone -- while the SE users are fussing over migration.

@S.L.Barth There are more interesting \p{Connector_Punctuation} characters for identifiers than underscores alone, although those work well as space-surrogates.

8:17 PM

Every so often people suggest migration for a bad question. All that will do is allow the question to die elsewhere.

@NormalHuman Fascinating.

@S.L.Barth I thought that was the norm.

@tchrist Well, for my Twitter handle, not much to be done about it now. I'll stick with the underscores.

user259867

Handles can be easily changed.

Not sure if S{L}Barth would be an improvement, @NormalHuman ....

Does it have to match ^\w+$ or are there other possibilities?

8:20 PM

If I cared about changing my Twitter handle, I might use more innovative characters.

user259867

@tchrist It's ^\w{1,15}$

user259867

Per Twitter support, support.twitter.com/articles/101299

user259867

Those lucky people with 1-character handles...'

user259867

@_ is Husband of @__, dad of @___

N wasn't that lucky

8:23 PM

Both A and N are on Twitter since 2007. Early to the party.

@S.L.Barth umm... no, N lost his handle in the GoDaddy fiasco

medium.com/@N/…

I've never understood why we still use credit cards. The "security" model was perhaps fit for the 1960s, not for the 2000s.

user259867

That's scary...

[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: ARCGIS NETWORK ANALYST by Josue Barahona on gis.stackexchange.com

@S.L.Barth There are a lot of reasons for that.

8:30 PM

Historical ones... and the fact that people are used to it.

I also question whether you were there for the 60s, or you might not say that.

So, what part bothers you?

The only "security" in credit cards is that you can cancel, if you act in time.

We have much better systems nowadays.

@S.L.Barth That’s nonsense.

You have so many one-time use possibilities today it makes no sense.

Consider NFC and EMV, plus end-to-end encryption.

So don't say that.

And of course there are the issuer scripts.

I enabled two factor authentication for most things I use nowadays, if possible, and let OAuth/OpenID deal with the rest

I am not unacquainted with matters of security involving credit cards.

@Braiam So you have to type a code into your handheld every time you make a financial transaction?

8:34 PM

OK, I haven't delved into this.

@tchrist nope, I don't do that

user259867

SE employee twitter.com/alexa probably got some unwanted attention from alexa.com ...

I have a RSA issued key

What do you use that with?

bank account

8:36 PM

Oh, I use two-factor for my bank account as well, just not for routine payments.

well, mine requires it... for even registering a target account

If I go to Target, I use my bank card with a PIN. If I were to set up recurring payments, that might require something else; it depends how they do it. But I am not especially fond of the way Target handles cards.

Modern credit cards have serious security, although the weak link is still the merchant.

I meant target as recipient, not Target

Oh heh. :)

So you mean to do a transfer?

I rarely use a credit card for payment. Only need it for international payments... but then I had to provide just the number, CCV and expiration date.

8:41 PM

Yes, I get challenged for those.

@S.L.Barth I don’t understand. How do you pay for things?

Surely you don’t write checks with forgeable signatures, or pay drug-money.

Online banking, mostly.

And the Dutch system, iDeal.

You go to a shop. You buy something. How do you pay?

Cash or PIN.

PIN means card.

Yes, but not the credit card.

8:42 PM

Ok, you're just dodging terminology then.

My bank pass is not a credit card.

I don't care if it's a gift card, a bank card, a credit card, or a charge card. It's a card.

not only for transfers... there was a time where the only way to pay services online was 1) use your credit card information 2) let your bank handle it for you, for a new service the later required you to prove your identity, registering the service that you want to pay, and the actual payment

I think you are using the term "credit" card differently than most people do.

Chip-and-PIN cards that take money from your bank account are still cards.

So you do use them.

you are still talking to me, or to SL?

8:44 PM

There are different networks.

@tchrist I definitely use cards, but I don't call them "credit cards".

SL

@S.L.Barth Dodgy, sir.

You're in the USA?

Why yes, but why do you ask?

I'm in NL, and I think if I say "credit card" here, people won't think I mean their bank card.

8:45 PM

Debit card vs Credit card, the only way to pay online for me is the later

@S.L.Barth Here they do.

Nobody says bank card, and not enough say debit card.

@tchrist Yes, this seems to be the source of the confusion.

Moreover, a debit card can be sent over the credit network if it Luhn-checks.

they just say "card" here

Strictly speaking most people would say "bankpas" ("bank pass") here, not "bank card"

brb

8:47 PM

@Braiam Seems best.

is the task of the interloper infer which

The reason you want to be have a card that can go both ways is because not all merchants have PIN-entry devices.

Although if they don't, they are going to get in trouble come the First of October: if you use a swipe for a chip card, the merchant becomes liable for fraud on that date.

that is US-only, right?

Yes.

The liability shift was earlier in most other countries.

Most people's debit cards are stripe+pin not chip+pin here.

I do have a card sitting in front of me that has no stripe, only a chip, but that is almost unusable in this country. Now.

By "stripe", I mean magnetic strip.

The scary thing.

A lot of people still use hand-written checks to pay for things here.

@tchrist not here

8:51 PM

In fact, it is sometimes the only way.

@tchrist here too

@S.L.Barth or pinpas

at least, institutions, individuals prefer cash

@Braiam Europe has a great aversion to that; it’s one of the way that the Americas are different.

Europe had the liability shift on 2005-01-01.

Indeed, @Bart .

8:54 PM

E2MANYBARTS

Even more confusion :-)

@NormalHuman what?????

Us bloody Dutchies :-)

@tchrist of cheques?

@Braiam No, for chip+pin cards.

> Eighty countries globally are in various stages of EMV chip migration, including Canada and countries in Europe, Latin America and Asia. According to EMVCo, as of December 2013:

2.37 billion chip payment cards are in use
99.9% of terminals in Europe are chip-enabled
84.7% of terminals in Canada, Latin America, and the Caribbean are chip-enabled
86.3% of terminals in Africa and the Middle East are chip-enabled
71.7% of terminals in Asia Pacific are chip-enabled
The United States is one of the last countries to migrate to EMV chip technology. American Express, Discover, MasterCard and Visa…

That's from the EMV FAQ, so keep in mind that they are going to overstate how rosy things are with a chip.

8:57 PM

Steps to weep: 1) google "EMV", 2) click the big banner that goes to paypal, 3) weep

Weeping failure: no big banner for paypal.

Almost nobody who hasn't coded up the transactions necessary for a regular magnetic stripe swipe (even with PIN) versus an EMV chip+pin transaction with all their gotchas has any idea how ugly and painful it is.

EMV FAQ

Dealing with EMV is more than 3 orders of magnitude more complex than dealing with a normal card.

I may be understating it.

Contrary to popular belief, the contents of the EMV transactions, including the track2-equivalent, are not by default encrypted.

security vs convenience, it is?

This is a system designed by a cast of thousands. It’s bound to be ugly.

Standard design-by-committee suckage.

at least it makes sense, right? RIGHT?!

9:02 PM

Don’t make me point you at documents. :)

ugh...

Don’t worry, I’m not that cruel.

Now, in theory, even if you nab the track2-equivalent, you shouldn't be able to replay that, but it depends on the issuer how they treat those, since sometimes they will be actual swipes.

If you only have track2-equiv from the chip, the chip can put a generation-count in the discretionary data to the right of the normal account number and expiration. That way it can vary each time and the issuer can never authorize that swipe more than once.

With a real magnetic swipe, you don't get that. NFC uses that strategy too. Sometimes.

So even if they skim the track2-equiv from the EMV tag that contains it, they wouldn't be able to use it. Maybe.

Very high-level EMV glossary, hiding most of the pain but alluding to it once or thrice.

One big problem is customer training and merchant training. Americans are not used to sticking their card up the butt of some reader and then leaving it there for an eternity.

Which with a chip, you have to do.

So they either pull out too soon — no joy there — or else leave the card and walk away forgetting it is still inside the reader.

weird, here you at worst spend 5 seconds

That's interesting.

Is it doing real-time on-lline verification? 5 seconds is normal-to-high average turn-around time if you are doing non-EMV card verification over the internet. But for whatever reason, stuff is pretty slow here. I think there has been media attention to this, about how Target got it down from 55s to 22s or something serious like that. I've never heard of a 5s EMV transaction in the States though.

It's possible you're in offline mode.

dunno, but even swipes have been fast here

9:15 PM

Transaction flow chart.

@Braiam That's our time for a swipe or a swipe+PIN, but I haven't seen that for chip+PIN yet.

EMV Slowdown although that doesn't have figures and is focusing only on the fact that you can't stick your card in until everything is totaled up.

> . . . maintain a the card in contact with the EMV reader for long 10–30 seconds or more before the transition is complete. But how will you know how long the card needs to remain in the EMV reader? Finally a PIN number or a signature will be required along with an enter button or tap.

user image

I remember a Visa ad, where they recommended the card instead of cash, because is faster... apparently they were lying

Right now, bank cards (swipe and PIN) are faster than hand-written checks. That’s about to change.

From Coming Soon To The Person In Line, In Front Of You: The Horror Of The EMV User Experience Fail. Change Is Upon Us: The Swipe Gives Way To The Dip, The Hover Or The Wave

Everybody's really worried. Right now there is a lot of scare-mongering.

I’m not convinced that that article is scare-mongering though.

I chuckled a little, when I read those titles

Well yes, the title is.

But this is probably accurate:

> One reason for the rejection of EMV at retail businesses was that the acceptance process of an EMV card is noticeably longer in real life use cases. The compounding effect is that lines grow longer and they slow down. This may not seem to sound like a big problem until you are personally caged into one of these lines. This reason alone made large merchants instantly reject the notion of bringing EMV to the US for over 20 years.

user259867

Well, looks like more drug-money payments for me.

9:27 PM

Ayup.

user259867

Nothing new for me here, in Russia one buys a car paying in cash, and it's perfectly normal.

This is a big problem here in Colorado now.

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in answer: What do the numbers on my credit/debit card mean? by miss flora rose on money.stackexchange.com

user259867

@SmokeDetector tpu- most topical spam ever

Just in taxes alone, the State collected like $135 million in pot taxes. And no pot business can have a bank account, so they constantly have suitcases of cash.

It also makes them targets for armed robbery.

9:30 PM

@NormalHuman Here, you need to go to the leaser first, so they authorise the dealer to give you the car, but most people still buys their cars used and from an individual

> My direct research concludes that EMV transactions can add up to 60 seconds to the standard card swipe transaction for an early EMV user. My time and motion studies do show this delay improves but not ever really equal to the speed of the old card swipe.

Frankly, I’d rather wait for a little old lady to get out her check book and hand-write a check. At least I know how long that will take for her to figure it out.

here you cannot dip, swipe or whatever with the terminal... the merchants have deemed the consumers too stupid to do it right

or at least it was like that until the "chip"

luckily we only have one card network "CardNet" which accepts all cards from all banks

Does the merchant take the card and stick it in, then let the owner enter the PIN if and when it asks for it?

The choices are "Swipe, Tap, or Dip" were swipe=magstripe, tap=NFC, dip=EMV

@tchrist yep

At least, that's the default English text for the Ingenicos pictured in that article. They also do Spanish and French. And in fact, they make you pick which one each time.

@Braiam That’s interesting. I wonder if merchants will end up doing that here, too.

9:41 PM

now CardNet is forcing merchants to put the terminal besides where the client would be, at remembering the cachiers that they are not supposed to take the card

Well, the consumer has to enter the PIN.

I haven't seen a reader where the PIN pad is separated from the reader, but I suppose it is possible.

It looks like some transactions may not require PINs if they are small enough. I'm still trying to figure that out. :(

It’s hard to know what the issuers will really do when you just have a fake test environment.

inb4 the thief buys several "small" stuff

It’s like how NFC doesn’t require a PIN. Maybe.

[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in body: my best animal is the dog by Kristóf Szabó on stackoverflow.com

@NormalHuman That’s a real one that’s only that one hit alone.

9:46 PM

Well, it's time for me to leave. @tchrist, this has been instructive, thanks for the overview of EMV.

Good afternoon.

@SmokeDetector Just killed that one

the tavern is slow today...

Reading spell design for ap compsci

user image

For power tools if statement, it should be flipped to fail "early"

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in answer: How can I avoid the self-noise of Electro-Voice RE-20 microphone? by Ben McEntarffer on sound.stackexchange.com

9:57 PM

@bjb568 I didn’t know you were a black cat.

Huh?

Oh, the Halloween thing

I hadn’t previously realized that you were involved in spell design.

user image

@Undo mm?

^ Shouldn't this be shown as 0:01?

10:03 PM

is truncation, not rounding

That.

I don't like it

It shows just hour and minute. It doesn't care about the picoseconds.

That's what makes the election timers inaccurate

Say what?

Splain this new revelation please.

user259867

10:04 PM

When you see "1 hour ago" on SE it's anywhere between 1 and 2 hours; could be 1:59.

This is true with all units, no?

When there's an hour and 59 minutes left on an election phase, it says one hour. I don't like it

Yesterday doesn’t get rounded either.

blame... mm... how was it called again, that library?

So you're saying that rounding 1:59 -> 1:00 is a fine and good thing?

10:06 PM

3 mins ago, by Braiam

is truncation, not rounding

SO is a remarkably sorry place, eh? :)

Truncation, rounding, whatever. It's still misleading.

@Undo So you expect days to change due to rounding?

I think that would confuse people if the dates changed!

do you like your digital clock on your phone tell you that is 00:00 on your girlfriend birthday, when actually is 23:59:30?

user259867

Dates are dates. I understand that "yesterday" refers to a period of time which contains the time of the event. No problem there.

10:08 PM

Well, I might give it a pass on 23:59:60.

user259867

But "1 hour ago" is not a period of time. At least not a clearly defined one.

Why is a day ago different from an hour ago?

[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: I NEED HELP: OUR FIVE (5) FACEBOOK ACCOUNTS WERE DISABLED FOR THE SAME REASONS— “PROMOTION” by Enjo on webapps.stackexchange.com

user259867

My ping was in context of a message slightly above it.

They could say "the connection is probably lost," but it's more fun to do naive time-averaging to give you hope that if you wait around for 1,163 hours, it will finally finish.

10:10 PM

@NormalHuman whoops... I didn't see the author of that comment...! Sorry!

And.. meh - it seems tweeting devs works these days ;P

also, time representations have always been in the way of the clock_gettime(3) function

user259867

Actually, I don't understand what "yesterday" means on SE.

@Braiam time representations should be based on how people think, not based on some archaic thing Torvalds did

user259867

I know that created:1d will give me the posts created within the UTC day preceding the current one.

either +24 hours ago, or the previous calendar day

user259867

10:12 PM

But this is not what "yesterday" describes.

@Undo actually, is what most people are used to do, because Torvalds designed it based on what people was used to do at the moment he designed it

really, when you ask a clock to give you hours and minutes, you don't expect it to add the seconds to the minutes calculations and round it up

nor I expect any respetable clock to do that

[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: BLACK CREEN ON BOOT HELP PLEASE by Rayvon McCain on askubuntu.com

Yesterday is the day before my last sleep; tomorrow is the day after my next sleep. :)

@Braiam Agree.

on other news, I'm seeing a rainbow...

or so I do when I move from my chair

“But … my hand hurts from copying the same instructions over and over,” Shelly finally admitted.
Marcus tried to look sympathetic. “I know it can be a tiresome task. That’s why I have apprentices do it for me.”
Shelly didn’t feel any better.”

heh

10:29 PM

Apparently I was a good influence on bjb... he's posting funny quotes on chat

Albeit still in English. :)

> ¿Cuál es el vino más amargo?
Vino mi suegra.

Good luck translating that one. :)

ok, next time I will post Kenji Monogarati and Shè diāo yīngxióng chuán

So long as its Pinyin, you won’t get spamblocked. :)

@tchrist yeah, that's not easy

which is one of the reasons I prefer source language instead of translations

I’m sure I’ve read a hundred books in Spanish, but only a small handful in Portuguese or French. It would probably be different in other situations, but still.

Maybe several hundred. Lots and lots and lots.

Some things are much better on Wikipedia in other languages than English.

10:43 PM

I found the opposite on the Spanish Wikipedia... I find the information lacking

For example, today I read about the Great Schism (multiple popes) in the Spanish and the French versions because they had so much better coverage than the English one.

@Braiam It depends on the subject, but I know what you mean. And for some reason, the Portuguese is often even worse.

user259867

Would you like to test design-independent graduation? got contrasted responses on meta.codereview.stackexchange.com

> What we need is reputation score thresholds, more than cosmetic changes.

Wonder just what that means.

What is the most bitter wine?
My mother came.

lol

@tchrist I presume the adjustment of privileges per reputation groups

@bjb568 Is actually "my spouse mother", but you get it

10:49 PM

I think so, but it seems to say the opposite.

@bjb568 My mother-in-law showed up.

Or Wine My Mother-in-Law.

(I'm being loose with "showed up".)

What a marque, no? Wine My Mother-in-Law

that doesn't sound like a wine that would be very popular...

for several reasons

There are those widow champagnes.

But I take your meaning.

Jul 23 at 19:03, by hichris123

My Fancy Excel Spreadsheet™ predicts the 10M'th question to be on 8/18.

We're getting kinda close. 40k questions to go.

But I think you may be a day or two early.

Of course, since we round days, that won’t matter. :)

oh noes...

10:58 PM

Funny you should say that.

We had a warning that started "Oops! ..." and which I translated as "¡Huy! ..." in the placeholder translation I stuck in, but then our "American" (this site of the Atlantic) translator said everybody says "¡Oops!" or "¡Oh no!" now here. :)

People whose first language is Spanish and who live in the United States expect different things than I imagine, because I never think of how much they use English words or expressions, even when not code-switching.

I'm lost... what language is that "American" supposed to know?

@Braiam He’s a Nicaraguan.

oh...

For quality control, whichever of the two of us does the translation passes it to the other one for the equivalent of code review.

because what "Oops!" means varies from country to country and sometimes even regions... that goes from a simple "¡Hay!" to "CARAJOS"

11:03 PM

@tchrist You mean 8/18? Or saying it today?

@Braiam True that.

Huy or Hay seemed most normal to me.

@hichris123 If SO gets 9k/day and we are one weekend day and two weekdays away...

the weekend will skew the results

Exactly.

@tchrist Yeah, I just put the latest numbers in the spreadsheet & it says 8/19 now.

I bet that’s because your projections were of amortized year-round days, not August-days.

Well, summer days.

Late summer.

Many vacating.

11:08 PM

I will return to the university on Monday :(

Seems unjust.

Let June, July, and August be sacrosanct.

nah, it would be more cool if they move from a bi-semester cicle to a tri-quadrimester

Semesters are six-month terms, trimesters are three-month terms, and quadrimesters are four-month terms. Which is it that you would like?

Three trimesters and the summer off?

@tchrist cicle is a year

That’s what I thought. So you have two six-month terms now and you would like to have three four-month terms?

11:17 PM

yeah

We had a spring, fall, and summer "semester" in America, but when I went to school in Spain they called the same things quadrimesters.

Well, quadrimestres, but you know what I mean.

Six months is a long time for a term.

> All new rules would be unit-tested by a group of Shakespearean actors. To make time in their schedule, they would cancel all future productions of Macbeth.

exactly... is freaking drag, and you need to select 6-8 subjects to go according to pensum

lol ^^

I've seen students taking even 10 courses on a single semester

because they want to finish fast

11:21 PM

Pensum meaning punishment or specialization field?

is there any difference? :P

heh

I mean curriculum

> ǁ pensum /ˈpɛnsəm/. rare.
Etymology: L. pensum weight, charge, duty, in Fr. an ‘imposition’ at school; f. L. pendĕre to weight.

A charge, duty, or allotted task; a school-task or lesson to be prepared; also (U.S.) a lesson or piece of work imposed as a punishment, a school ‘imposition’.

1705 J. Howe Wks. (1834) 298/1 (Stanf.) ― Every one hath his pensum, his allotment of work and time assigned him in this world.
1880 J. W. Sherer Conjuror’s Daughter 91 ― John Dowse··worked at his daily task as a schoolboy sat down to his pensum.

I guess the punishment sense is US-only.

Guess we took it from Danish and Norgerians according to wikipedia

11:25 PM

I think we took it from the French.

But I’m not sure. It’s a rare word here.

@Braiam ooh, you can do that? sounds like fun!

@bjb568 You will be surprised, young master; you will be surprised.

(sarcasm…)

@bjb568 I don't recommend it... you will start at 7am and end at 10pm

There's no way you can actually learn 10 things at once.

11:27 PM

almost every day, Saturday included

And when would you do homework?

@bjb568 Why, did somebody cut off one of your fingers?

:p

:Þ

Otherwise it’ll catch in your teeth.

Þór would not like that.

11:41 PM

> Thorn or þorn is a letter in the Old English, Gothic, Old Norse and modern Icelandic alphabets, as well as some dialects of Middle English.

lol

:p

:þ

:b

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