Tavern on the Meta - 2014-03-29 (page 1 of 2)

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12:33 AM

Hi all. Has anyone found anything to vote to close today yet?

12:48 AM

@Stilly.stack rofl. You do know that's why there's the close vote queue? :P

@hichris123 ouch.. that really hurts, since i'm review banned

@Stilly.stack ... you still are? Wow.

Thought someone would have unbanned you.

@Stilly.stack Ever get the reason for your ban?

@hichris123 anna posted something, but I couldn't see it since I have < 10k

but pretty much i was probably just targeted by a mod for whatever reason, oh well, i can live with it

kinda like if a cop follows you for long enough, they'll be able to pull you over for something , no matter how small it is

cv-pse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725616/…

cv-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725617/android-sdk-is-too-slow

cv-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725637/…

cv-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725634/…

1:18 AM

cv-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725774/…

cv-pretty-pretty-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725785/python-checking-characters

cv-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22725819/…

1 hour later…

2:49 AM

Poll: If you were to put a logo at the top of a web page, would you a.) use an <img> tag, or b.) put an <h1> tag up there, and use CSS to give it a background-image?

@jadarnel27 Yes.

@Doorknob "yes" what?

Yes, I would a.) use an <img> tag, or b.) put an <h1> tag up there, and use CSS to give it a background-image

Because someone definitely did "b" in the project I'm currently working on.

And I've done way more "back end" coding than front end, but that seems really bizarre to me.

Doesn't seem like a proper use of the header tag. There's not even any text in it. It's just used as a container for the logo.

err... why a h1 tag anyways?

2:53 AM

@Doorknob Your feedback is invaluable, thanks =)

@jadarnel27 Glad to "help"! :D

I don't really know, @Braiam. I inherited code.

Option b just sounds... weird.

3:11 AM

Agreed.

3:22 AM

@jadarnel! How's it going?

@BlueIce!

It's weekend time, so I am doing well. You?

Me too :)

I love Friday nights

It's nice to be able to kick back and relax for a little while.

cv-pls stackoverflow.com/questions/22326605/…

4:24 AM

this? stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/4452480

4:53 AM

Alright. Sleeptime.

3 hours later…

7:54 AM

so many invalid flags.

-2

A: How stored procedures can help against SQL injection in a web-application?

All right, as this question is about to close, and there was no objections, let's consider my speculations true. Thanks everyone for sharing the knowledge.

let us hope accepted answers will be deleted, too, if they do not answer the question.

-1

A: DataGridViewMaskedTextColumn for DataGridView in Winforms

you can use !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/26005/DataGridViewColumn-Hosting-MaskedTextBox

8:39 AM

Revision 2 seems like it shouldn't have happened..

@3ventic yes, looks like the OP rolled back...

I mean the whole second answer in the answer

Yes, you're right, Toby provided an answer as an edit and then the OP corrected that one. Weird indeed

I didn't see that the first time...

C:\...\github\se-spam-helper [v2-master]> git commit -am "2.0.1 - temporarily removed the menu"

aaargh... I need to get my CSS working with SE's toolbar... again

8:56 AM

You could ask SE devs to lock that part of the source tree so you can catch up :-)

no... I don't think the modern se-toolbar is going to undergo any large changes soon

It is just CSS?

the old toolbar was a mess; I hope the new network toolbar will be less of; I've also discarded all the code related to the old toolbar

CSS and HTML

in the old toolbar, I've attached myself through position: absolute. I hope I won't have to this time.

That is nasty indeed...

Yoi didn't synced that commit yet

do you want to get my CSS right? I'll push then.

9:05 AM

Yeah, I can't guarntee I can help but at least i can try...

pushing... done

The code building the menu is still there.

OK

9:24 AM

got "Invalid filter specified" from the API. Sweet.

Now the API says "no method found with this name". WAT?

... because my URL is clearly wrong for mysterious reasons

9:52 AM

any idea how did my quota get from 10k to 269?

10:07 AM

you did debug a lot?

kinda

but I'm not aware of having sent a ton of requests.

Some process got stuck and keeps pulling?

my app seems to be the only consumer

Hi Jan

@AnnaLear: Hi

hello

10:16 AM

Anna, Jan, please, feel completely free to tell me if I'm bothering or annoying you. But if you let me I would like to say that I've prepared a factual report showing my doubts about the lightness of the suspension which I got on cog.sci.

I'm not asking you to read it and make your own idea on that.. it's really long

@Revious I don't think I can be helpful

@JanDvorak: I would only like to ask you the following question

from that report seems evident that I've been suspended from a mod which warned me 23 days before, didn't follow any of my progress and that I've been strongly collaborative with the section (the mod is probably not aware of this). Also, he his absent from the chat and site since the last 2 days and his presence there is minimal.

Anna said that even if I'm rigth it's wrong to change a system that have proven to work enough only for a single case.

my objection was that the system can be easily improved and it's easy to get things "working" through the adoption of very firm and strict punishment, but half the literature of the world has been denouncing this "easy way" of getting results. (Try to abstract the concept of achieving obedience through drastic measure to real life)

the question is: do you think it would be positive that someone from the community management would go deep in this kind of reflection?

The principle objection that I often get is that SE is opposed to YA since its firmness, but, actually, it doesn't apply to what I'm saying. I'm saying that the possibility for the mod to give a question ban instead of a suspension would be nice.

@Revious what would that achieve?

@JanDvorak: that it would be possible to achieve exactly the same quality by considering a bit more persons feelings, avoiding to tag them as "enemy".

@Revious perhaps, but q-bans don't timeout

10:31 AM

it would be possible to make a manual q-bans with a maximum duration and that can also be lifted by the normal ways q-bans are lifted. Also it would be nice to open a community Question on meta asking how to reach a more "human" SE without loosing quality (the title of course would not be like that)

@Revious too much effort

@JanDvorak: ok, but the alternative is to continue some behaviour wich are not completely "fair". They are convenient and effective and they don't require effort..

Try to abstract from this "little" site.. drastic measures in the real life works and are easy for who is applying them.

@Revious q-bans aren't any less drastic

@JanDvorak: the biggest problem that I see is not the seven days suspension..

is its exponential raising

7 -> 30 -> 365

complaining on meta => q-ban

@Revious I don't think that exponential raising is automatic...

10:37 AM

(and all this stuff starting from the consideration that the user had been warned 23 days before the suspension and he had revised 40 times his questions to improve them...)

@Revious you're challenging the punishment, not the method of punishment, now.

@JanDvorak it's not mandatory, but the system advice the mod to raise the last of the suspension in that exponential way

And there's nothing I can do about it.

@Revious so, tell the mods nicely why they shouldn't

@JanDvorak: you can say: "yes.. maybe there is something that is not completely working in the system"

it would be a strong base to go further

@Revious name it

10:39 AM

if you say it

@JanDvorak (sorry my english is not perfect.. what does it mean?)

@Revious describe exactly what isn't working

@JanDvorak: an user got warned for the low quality of his questions on a forum from a mod. The user asked advices on how to improve the questions. The user have done about 40 edits to improve its questions.

High rep users and other mods agreed on the strong enhanchemente achieved by that user

@Revious so far so good

The user can provide factual evidence of this with links to chat

so far so good

10:45 AM

the moderator didn't follow the user progress.. after 23 days the quality of the question had improved but not at the level that had would be completed appreciated by the community. This is the sentence:

@Revious now that's nothing that should be solved by reducing the "humiliation level" of a punishment

but by having said moderator follow the user progress before potentially applying a punishment.

@JanDvorak: yes, I agree.. but he is away from 2 days (as usual..)

@Revious so, who brought the punishment?

roles, not names

but the problem is that the next punishment will be 30 days

@JanDvorak a moderator issued the punishment

@Revious how do you know, and how do you know there will be a punishment?

10:49 AM

@JanDvorak the user has been suspended one time for a possible not completely fair reason

this shows error can occur

but it's obvious that error occurs!!

@Revious even so, triple errors are much less likely than single errors

(sorry for the outburst)

p(2 errors) = p(error) ^ 2

@JanDvorak yes.. but consider that the moderator doesn't know that I've been strongly collaborative

@Revious once again, that's not something that should be solved by tweaking the amount of punishment

10:51 AM

and, according to one psychologyst, writer of best seller books, person are not very happy to be criticized, to discover they were wrong, judge on emotional basis, and so on...

@Revious hold on... let me reply with a quote

of course, thanks for your help

@Revious Hebrews 12:11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

@JanDvorak: The problem is that SE has chosen a very firm (not only strict, but also irremovable) way to reach its objective.

The q-ban on meta disallow users to try to complain about some injustice happened, and even more it inhibits even the smallest change to the system itself (since of the hurried downvotes of many many users)

Actually, SE reachs effectiveness and quality, yes, but by using drastic, irremovable measure, and often without a possibility to have a fair review of the happening. (if you try you get answered that it's better to be unfair that to be like YA)

@Revious meta Q-ban has already been discussed a million times

it's also much less strict than on the main sites

and it won't exist on meta.so once meta.se is open.

11:05 AM

one possible solution would be to disincentivate the downpost after the 3rd one

@JanDvorak I've been studying engineering. I love the discipline.

@JanDvorak But in a community not everyone is rational..

according to psychologist almost no one.. :D

@Revious mods should be

you used the right word.. "should"

I've been studying some cognitive psychoterapy for some time, also I've read a lot of self-help book

@Revious if you have any evidence against a specific mod, bring it up on meta or send an email to the dev team

Dale Carnegie - How to win friends and influence people is wonderful

@JanDvorak: I will try but.. I'm q-banned from meta (sigh, sob)

@Revious do you think human books can be trusted?

@Revious how did you get banned?

11:09 AM

@JanDvorak: this a very good philosophical question :P

one of my belief is that if some injustice happens it would be nice to "repair" the system so that it would not repeat any more..

let me write a strong sentence that I will immediately delete

@Revious I know it sounds terrible and ironic but... would you prefer to have been suspended on meta rather than q-banned?

lol

the exponential raise of suspension length is an effective, but very drastic measure. If I would ask you: do you estimate worlds countries using effective but drastic measures? Would you answer yes?

@Revious so, do you suggest to reduce the steepness of suspension growth?

yes...

but when I tried to write it on meta I got q-banned :D

come on.. it's... how can I explain my feelings on hurried downvotes in that section?

then it would be too shallow for people that should be suspended... say, people who post "I f*ed your mother, [mod]" ten times a day on a math site.

@Revious don't delete stuff; it only deepens the q-ban

11:15 AM

@JanDvorak then the system could strongly differentiate the ban possibility. The long ban should be admitted only for severe errors...

really? :(

thanks

@Revious mods can already choose the suspension length; why don't you trust them?

let be realistic.. I've been a moderator.. mods are human, human are irrational, emotive, Carnagie is very clear on that. Why people "licks" their boss?

you can go to cognitive science and ask for scientific evidence suggesting that people are not rational

@Revious just because you have been dealing oversized punishments doesn't mean everyone will

I've experimented many "unfairness" by mod till now.
Also, the creators of this community stated that if the community software / rules is good the community will fit better

@Revious do you have any hard evidence? Provide it.

11:20 AM

@JanDvorak yes.. but trying to explain my perplexity on meta about that and incurring in strongly biased people

have a look here

-20

Q: How is suspensions being administered to the members?

The length of the first suspension can be changed by moderators, but, by default, it's lasting 7 days. The second one 30 days, the third one 365 days. An exponential model fits the raise of the suspension duration. This kind of restriction is effective in preventing users from repeating actions...

support account-suspension

I opened that question..

I got q-banned 3 times on meta until now...

was it worth of 20 downvotes and a q-ban?

Ask someone else about that

also people got upset by this kind of threatment.. and they incurr in more harsh measures since they become polemical.. but.. it's the system to facilitate all this stuff..

@JanDvorak what do you mean?

a second opinion?

@Revious yep

but are you convinced that something is not completely fair?

it could help a lot!!!

@Revious do you have a proof for that? Remember voting is community driven. If the community hates your question, it's not the mods' fault or the system that needs changing.

I can't tell why this got 20 downvotes, but I'm sure it's not the programmers' fault or the mods' fault.

11:28 AM

yes, on that you are completely rigth but:
the problem originates in this way:
- harsh measures
- people go to meta to complain or suggest that drastic measure are not very fair
- people also get q-banned

softening the harsh measures would be a huge improvement

@Revious for 1) you need evidence

In my case it was like that..

but it would be enough to open a wikified question on meta

@Revious for 2) - there's "complaining" = providing claims about unfair treatment and providing evidence and "complaining" = ranting about being unfairly treated, without providing any evidence or even a specific claim, demanding radical changes in a system that seems to work perfectly fine.

@Revious 3) if the community doesn't want to hear your opinion, they won't listen even if you are allowed to speak.

@Revious 4) ... no.

@JanDvorak why do you say this?

@Revious it would lessen the efficiency of punisment for people who should be punished

11:33 AM

@JanDvorak ok, but I mean differentiating between people like me and people who writes swears..

@Revious how do you know that doesn't happen?

I got suspended 2 times on SR

1 time in cogsci

3 times q-banned on meta

only for trying to "improve" the system on the human side

and yet mods are still convinced your contributions are low-quality

and I'm starting to be convinced of that as well

at least at the side of presentation

yes... I lack a bit on presentation..

can you improve on that?

11:36 AM

@JanDvorak I revised 30 questions 40 times...

doesn't it show any effort?

I've asked many many times on the chat how could I improve

I can provide 16 links as evidence

effort is admirable, but is it bearing its fruit?

@Revious did you get any advice, and did you apply it?

yes, high rep user are recognizing it

of course.. I got also some improvements in reputation

(I did also a mistake)

you see I'm sincere, reflective

let me add a harsh reflection for you

the reason to want drastic measure is that it's easier to manage users..

it's not very "noble" since here..

it would be enough to make the suspension 5 - 20 - 60

problem finished, human side improved

@Revious wat? Reducing the punishment helps controlling those who need to be punished, you say? How come?

can I provide an example from real life?

@Revious you don't make a cop a nice guy by chopping his arms off, then saying "see? I told you he'd stop shooting people at random. Now we should chop every cop's arms off"

11:41 AM

I mean.. there are some system which are very famous (and criticized) for using very drastic measure which are also effective

@JanDvorak there are shadess..

referring to your example

@Revious it's the policies, not abilities of authorities, that make a regime very strict

there are a lot of shades between China, Russia, Death Penalty and countries like the europe

@Revious Godwin's law in 3...

no.. I didn't make a comparison

2...

11:44 AM

I answered to you showing how shades behaves in a completely different system

which is not comparable with SE

but is however teaching us a lot on person's emotiveness

on the willing to solve problems in the "easiest" way

without taking care of niceness, diplomacy and sometime also of fairness...

status-facepalm

?

@Revious did the moderators act rude?

no.. rude no.. harsh maybe

unfair and emotional someway

@Revious did something unfair happen to you? Can you pinpoint that? Can you provide evidence? Complain about that, not about the system has allowed them

11:47 AM

ok...

"This cop has just shot me! And I think this cop will shoot me twice! Cops shouldn't be given guns!"

no.. "this cop has shot me and when I go out of hospital he shot me again.. maybe we could change some rule"

it would be enough to write on the guidelines that a suspension to "nice" users should not grow in an exponential way

finished

too much effort?

@Revious no... "this cop has shot me, and when I got to the hospital, an angry mob has lit their torches... cops shouldn't be given guns"

ahaha, ok, it's a bit like that also :P

@Revious do you have any evidence that the "always the longest suspension possible" is in fact in place? Provide it.

11:52 AM

@JanDvorak I really, really, really hope that this is not true

@Revious then why do you complain?

I'm saying that it would be "human" (and would not affect the quality) to:
1) write in the guidelines that the lasting of suspension are growing in exponential way [I'm pretty sure you are going to answer that it's not mandatory, but the simply fact that it's adviced to the mod is enough to warn users]

How long were the SR suspensions, again, and what for?

7 and 30 days

I tried there to change the system

complaining, a bit polemical

but... who would not complain for :

this cop has shot me, and when I got to the hospital, an angry mob has lit their torches...

@Revious why? It's not usual to get one suspension. Most people don't even get a warning.

@Revious well, it's not the cop's fault that everyone wants you dead

11:56 AM

most of people don't try to say that one system has something that could be not so fair...

yes, but it's a problem of the system that you incurr in a q-ban..

or, at least..

the system is not fair

but again..

I didn't got an explicit warning before the 1st suspension on SR

I didn't got an explicit warning before the 2nd suspension on SR

there are too many things..

@Revious If people agreed with you, they would upvote. They don't agree. Repeating the same again and again won't change their minds.

the police who shoots you

the mob with the torches

@Revious now that's something you can discuss about with the respective authorities.

@Revious The government isn't who told the people to light their torches. They genuinely hate you. What do you want to change?

the q-ban tolerance maybe

been discussed ad nauseam

12:00 PM

(the government allows the people with torches to ligth you)

ok..

then at least the guidelines

write there that the suspension MAY be exponentially

@Revious so... you want to steal guns from cops and a free firefighter suit for everyone?

@braiam hi!

ahah, no.. I would like to write a couple of things on the guidelines / FAQ

1) the lasting of the suspension

0

A: [java]How to print specyfic String without using quotes neither " nor '?

Are you talking about this task: http://konkursy.sfi.org.pl/programistyczny/index.php?action=task&id=3 ? I think you should try to solve it by yourself! It's programming contest, you should take the challenge and not ask for solution!

2) mods should warn user explicitly with a private message before the second suspension

12:02 PM

@Revious why?

@Revious disputable

@JanDvorak: sometimes it not needed to take guns away from police

(however in london they also did and the justice works)

but there is a minimun need of rules also for the police..

They still lock you up if you commit a crime

@Revious Londoners are basically Canadians except with rain instead of snow

@3ventic of course, but 1 day of jail is different from 30 days and it's different from one bullet in the head

they are shades

@JanDvorak I didn't know this sentence

are you from USA?

@Revious nope

12:05 PM

what are Cambridgers?

I guess you are from a country with strict rules

@Revious no

Where are you from?

Why do you want to know?

ahahah, you are never direct

12:06 PM

@Revious I know whom to learn from

@JanDvorak: no, I was just curious.. no problem if you don't want to answer

who?

I think it's a really good techinique for debating

@Revious hint: whom have I been quoting half of this discussion ago?

also many psychologis's book advice to do like that

Hebrews 12:11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I like the way Jesus Christ talked to people

yes, me too, a lot

but where is it taken from?

that quote I mean?

12:10 PM

The quote about canadians? Made up

Or, did you mean this?

Epistle to the Hebrews

Epistle to the Hebrews, or “Letter to the Hebrews,” is the traditional name of a text that the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament simply called “To the Hebrews” (ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ). Scholars of Greek consider its writing to be more polished and eloquent than any other book of the New Testament. Since the earliest days of the Church, the authorship and canonicity have been debated. Presumably once known and respected by the epistle's readers, the author became unknown and today is often described as unknowable. The book has earned the reputation of being a "masterpiece". It also has been ...

the second

or, do you mean what translation is it from?

no, no, I meant the epistle to the Hebrews

In any case, even if our conclusions are different, I think I've learned something today..

that is...

In my life I always want to "improve" myself (reading books), systems (preventing unfairness), other people (giving them advice based on experience or psychology and so on)

But I'm bad at presenting things

and I pretend that people make an effort to improve (even if they don't follow my advice, but simply to improve)

When you asked me many questions I had to think on that and to see that people may think in a different way. And since that it's hard to change a whole system.

so it requires a really strong effort toward presentation, understanding other people and the way to speak with them also

@JanDvorak

12:19 PM

do you still intend to change the system?

I still think the system could be improved, but now I think I should start from little things.

trying to write good posts on meta

I think I can agree with that

trying to solve my personal case before

@JanDvorak thank for listening me and for the lesson

I wish you luck in getting your presentation improved;

Thanks, I really think I will have to work hard on it

but one day I will do it

12:22 PM

As for the pull request - thanks, I'm going to check how it looks.

The Guy with The Hat

12:45 PM

Should this be closed?

0

Q: Source attachment for SQLiteDatabase.class file

I'm beginner in android. My app asks for source attachment containing the SQLiteDatabase.class file to create the database. Could you please tell me where to get that?

Hmmm, I'm not sure. He is probably just missing a reference....

> requesting answers for 0 questions on [site]

WAAT is my code doing?

You shouldn't blindly merge all pull request...

@rene you were changing the CSS part; how can I test that without merging?

That would be hard indeed

12:55 PM

is it possible to pull into a new branch?

Huh, I guess so but I'm not fluent in git...

yet another option would be to ignore the request and pull from your repository, I guess

In any case, thanks.

stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/4454157

:(

1:23 PM

was this too minor?

Reject-pls stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/4454230

They take my advice to the extreme...

Hmmm, yeah, now you got rid of the link but now the OP has a wall of code without any explanation....if you add a couple of sentences how the OP should use this code, what he might need additionally this could become a good answer... — rene 1 min ago

@rene at least he tried :-)

I'll give him points for that :-)

SPAM bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/24116/…

done...and I have another account on SE...

1:36 PM

@JanDvorak I kind of think the edit was good...

1 hour later…

The Guy with The Hat

2:49 PM

Just clicked approve on another edit audit... time to work on that "approve confirmation" userscript again.

@TheGuywithTheHat Keep me informed

The Guy with The Hat

@JanDvorak Of my progress?

ye.

The Guy with The Hat

Too bad. I won't make any progress.

I know myself too well to actually believe I'll get it working.

aaand I'm out of API quota

2:58 PM

Is it per day?

clse-plse stackoverflow.com/questions/22732612/…

yep

let's see how long I survive tomorrow

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