Tavern on the Meta

8:30 AM

trying the chat out, one, two, three

nice :)

mmm, this reminds me I haven't dipped in the cocoa/iphone/ios/mac tags in a while on SO

mr.bio

8:41 AM

wooow , gr8 work !

made a Cocoa room! because the world needed one!

and because if WPF can have one, I don't see why we Apple snobs can't :)

anyway: chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/102/cocoa :)

thijs

"test"

works

thijs

oh I mean "Hello World" of course :P

:p

Commander Keen

8:51 AM

Another test. Keen icons rock :)

thijs

hey

9:22 AM

Hello World

Veera

hello (chat) world.

Yes, hello. What's the topic?

"How cool is this chat?"

also kittens, I think, but let's not stray too far :)

and, unicorns.

unicorns are always in topic. everywhere.

9:27 AM

Permalinks for every chat message is pretty awesome.

2

Rooms for every question is pretty awesome too

2

++

which is shorthand for "I agree wholeheartedly"

You can also "star" the message if you agree.

I see message editing too. Awesomesauce.

Editing your messages is also pretty awesome

2

9:36 AM

I guess EU time is not a good time for mostly-US-traffic sites, is it? :)

You know what would be cool? If real time chat replaced the comments feature...

:O /me immediately stars your suggestion.

Won't that be just too much noise?

mmmm; anyone other than me sees potential for star abuse (assuming all my starred comments also appear in your sidebar?)

It would just make comments more immediate, and allow that first flurry of "your question needs more information" to proceed more smoothly

"star abuse" is a term waaay ahead of its time :)

9:38 AM

star spam, then? :p

"Lord Vader, they are charging us with 3 counts of star abuse!"

galactic social workers were then dispatched.

not much traffic in the other room I made; but I wanted to be there to raise the flag.

THIS IS OUR CHAN or something.

"and no one (but the mods) can kick people outta here" or somesuch.

10:13 AM

because there's no better time than when you're packing

to find out your nemesis bug

is caused by Bizarre Linking Shenanigans.

(or at least appears to be!)

will have to bring work with me to the sea, dammit.

10:44 AM

Ooooh, <3 the iPhone UI :D

A screenshot of the aforementioned mobile UI: db.tt/JORJMc

I guess it will also work on Android phones

12:04 PM

RE: " @Andy @Lasse: "I know, but the good answers get buried by the simple ones :-)" shameless plug , my blog post ... samsaffron.com/archive/2010/08/05/… , plenty of great well thought out answers that come late still manage to get upvotes

in fact running stats once you filter out the really short answers and the wiki stuff. things start looking really interesting

agree that lot of times one liners win the reputation lottery ... but the stats kind of show that reputation lotteries are rare

You have to be patient

superjoe30

12:20 PM

so....

how is this better than IRC

njd

It works behind corporate firewalls.

I know that I've sometimes put a lot of effort into high quality answers and been disappointed that they seem to have been ignored. But eventually, you start to gain upvotes

@superjoe30 it also retains history of each room, and lets you get a permalink to any post for cross referencing. Just sayin' :)

The star feature is interesting + editing is nice

@Cas agree, it takes a while sometimes to gain the upvotes

12:29 PM

That being said, this is not really revolutionary, just nicely implemented. And will be better implemented over time

revolutionary = google wave

Which is now not supported by Google :-(

exactly

Regardless, I think that Wave will prove an inspiration for future projects

spoulson

Hello

12:30 PM

hi

I hope not, it was an sad example where performance constraints were chucked out the window

@waffles: Performance was getting better over time

performance should have been good from day one, eg. Google Chrome ...

get that right, then wack on features

It was still in preview

nobody understood it

12:34 PM

I understood it. Took a lot of effort though

I just love the edit feature (of this and in wave too)!

yeah does IRC have that :)

part of the problem with wave is that most of the benefits would only accumulate if everyone uses it

12:51 PM

So... is everyone at work?

Afternoon...well - for some of us...

I guess that is a relevant piece of information: location. I'm in the US, so work is just getting started.

UK here.

@Daniel Just warming up for work in Montreal

Just come back from a pub lunch. :-D

12:54 PM

Nice.

How do you know? It was minging! ;-) Nah, lovely fish and chips. ;-)

I love fish and chips. I just hate vinegar. Does that make me a bad person?

I would say these chatrooms need to be introduced as part of SO, too, not just for meta.

@Darrel How is Montreal on this lovely Thursday morning?

I'm not a vinegar fan either.

12:55 PM

I'm in Aus

So it's like... the middle of the night?

But some tartare sauce on the cod. Yumm.

11pm

@Daniel Kind of damp from thunderstorms last night. Other than that its pretty nice.

Tartar sauce I can work with. Cod I can definitely work with.

12:56 PM

And batter, obviously.

Stormy in New Orleans too last night. Amazing lightning actually. If I wasn't driving, I would've been taking pictures.

Artery clogging batter.

I like seafood sauce

And beer, I presume?

Wil

First time here! - is chat only active for meta.stackoverflow at the moment?

12:57 PM

Indeed. Crikey, you're psychic.

@Wil Yes,

@Wil: Seems to be

cool

Would be awesome if every question on SO has it's own (possibly time limited) chatroom.

Wil

... Anyone messed around / typed a/s/l yet !!!

12:59 PM

Some questions definitely need the ability to discuss

@Wil: We don't want all the answers happening in chat

This is going to kill me

But it will be good to finally have some good discussions

the productivity lost to this service might be measurable in federal labor statistics

:)

You can't be as elaborative in brief chat txt as in a proper answer post.

1:00 PM

@Michael Yeah, I hear you. But I will not be able to resist joining the hive mind.

Wil

@Michael agree there - been here two minutes and I can see myself wasting time here!

Besides, transcripts of the chat would become part of the history of the question/answers.

I'm loving this.

chatting could be better than comments, with promoted chats replacing promoted comments; and as long as comments/chats don't earn rep, people will still post answers

I can imagine the next step being enabling a TinyChat style video and audio. Then we can argue face to face :-)

Agreed @Michael

@Darrel - that would be too overwhelming.

1:03 PM

@DarrelMiller couple that with the "random unanswered question" button and you'd have chat roulette, programmer edition

@Michael Awesome.

tests support for actions

Or is it just formatting?

Well there you have it

I guess I could've done that in the Sandbox, huh?

@DanielStraight check this out

@Michael Thanks

So I found soma fm through a deleted HN post the other day, and now I'm addicted.

Hi thar.

1:10 PM

@Pwninstein that was fast

Haha, I suppose it was

Am I going to regret opening fiddler while here?

@MichaelHaren give it a try, it should be interesting

@Micheal I'm running it

Answer: yes.

1:14 PM

@MichaelHaren Yes you regret it?

It's a very lightweight, 1s poll; I bet this team is eager to get some websockets action

@Pwninstein yes (not really)--pretty much what you'd expect

@Michael I'm seeing a 2-3 second poll.

Maybe it's dynamic, based on average chat msg updates

Which would make sense

@MichaelHaren alrighty, I'm going to try to get something done this morning. Thanks for linking this!

Someone really needs to trim those headers :-) 1,273 bytes of sent headers on every request.

1:17 PM

@DarrelMiller - that seems to be right (pardon my poor estimation skills). Fiddler supports you

Just arrived

a newbie to this chat

Decio Lira

hi @knox

I wonder why the polling uses a POST. The info in the body could easily be put in the URL.

Hi, Decio

spoulson

@DarrelMiller what difference would that make?

@DarrelMiller One side effect of POST is that responses are not supposed to be cached. Ideal for a realtime chat.

1:23 PM

I wonder if they are using SQL server for database... I'm not sure it would scale for realtime chat

Of course I know they use SQL Server for the rest of stack

oh hi

hi, @mquander

oh goodness you got my thing bouncing up and down over there

truly a featureful chat

is that what the @ in @mquander does?

@DarrelMiller Maybe they're expecting chat messages > ~2k chars?

1:26 PM

@spoulson Not sending a body is probably a bit more lightweight. You can prevent caching with GETs too. I would expect that polling is safe and idempotent. The semantics match GET better than POST, that's all.

Dave

How meta is this... chatting about the chat room :)

On Meta

@Dave Well, we could be chatting about the chatting in the chat room...etc..

dave when you entered i could barely resist saying "dave has landed"

what with the icons flying all around

Dave

Yes it is a potentially infinite loop

@mquander yeah I noticed that...

@Wim. I'm not suggesting that sending a message should be done with GET, just the polling.

1:27 PM

is there a way to download the CV from careers with all the CSS embedded in the HTML page?

@Darrel Ah - good point. Indeed.

Drew

J0.

@CristianCiupitu your browser will probably do that for you if you do a save as

bye for now

Cheerio @Knox

1:30 PM

@MichaelHaren: it doesn't work. The CSS resources are saved as separate files (just as they should be).

I'm using firefox-3.6.7-1.fc13.x86_64 in case this matters

Dave

So you have to open a new window to see a profile? There's an opportunity for improvement...

@Cristian: use IE and save as MHT or, print to PDF? Not quite what you asked for, but it's a single-file result

a little googling shows that there are tools out there to convert separate css to inline, you can probably find one to suit your needs

@MichaelHaren: well, I sure don't have IE on Linux, but I'll try the print to PDF. It crossed my mind too, but I haven't tried it yet.

@Cristian It's not reproducable later, but here you go: share1t.com/ry3mfz

1:38 PM

@MichaelHaren: no need, thank you. I've tried to print to both a PDF and a PS, but it seems that only 1 page is printed. I wonder if there's a bug in Firefox.

thanks!

@CristianCiupitu no problem; back to work--later

Q: Bad but unavoidable websites

1:57 PM

what is the coolest code everyone wrote yesterday

phwd

To @rchern @eagle @ChrisF whenever you see this

1

I asked this over at stackoverflow, but was kicked to this site instead: - What are some websites that are really bad (at performance, design, usability etc) that you would rather not use, but are compelled to because of necessity or lack of alternatives? Post each example as a separate answer...

website

spoulson

2:59 PM

ded

3:13 PM

Hello

3:44 PM

Why are they allowing so many subjective questions in WebApps? I don't mind poll-things that have useful answers people can use, but the one just posted here has no usefulness (based on the aim of the Website to help WebApp users). Is the team just trying to keep people happy until the community builds, and then the community will take care of it. I guess it does motivate me to get to 3k.

The question just posted might be useful on a Web Design stackexchange.

@Lance, it is definitely something on our radar.

There are a bunch of questions on the meta regarding ot/webapp-rec/list/etc...but I don't feel that there's much of a consensus.

I've been hearing a lot of complaints from the Gaming mods

about the same types of problems

I've been trying to formulate a comprehensive post for a few days.

It is an issue on a bunch of the sites and the mods have been talking. It is going to come down to the community though.

I really think that there is a giant problem in giving new mods control of a site

I think that we need more experience mods to take the reigns until the site builds

Because a lot of these things are just experience problems

not knowing how to moderate properly

I disagree.

Moderators are there to do things the community can't.

3:48 PM

The other option @LanceRoberts, is that they want to get the subjective questions out of the way as CWs and then there won't be more in the future since they will be duplicates

The community has to be the one to voice its opinion on things like this.

I disagree. Making everything CW is not the answer.

I understand a need for more flexibility when starting a site up, so that you can build a community, so I don't know where the line really is. I just know that if I was 3k I'd vote to close that question.

Well, at least yesterday it seemed like non of the mods were waiting for the community to say anything

Ivo Flipse

Well @LanceRoberts I'm planning to stop it:

Q: Voting on the future of list of X questions

they were acting on their own thoughts of what was appropriate.

Ivo Flipse

3:49 PM

8

As of now we have several questions discussing what to do with list of X and games-rec questions: Here's a summary of all that has been said before (and was upvoted): Should we allow poll questions - Result: no, we shouldn't Best/favourite/subjective list type questions - Result: no potential ...

discussion scope close-votes lists

I definitely disagree with using CW for these types of questions, but my Meta WebApps question on that brought out from RC that that was how they wanted to handle those types of questions.

The issue has been raised in mod discussions with each other just about daily.

@Chacha102, it isn't the mods' site. It is the community. Mods aren't really there to say "this is how I want to do it so that's what we're doing."

@Ivo, I don't think that all list questions are bad, since some can just be an efficient way of answering a lot of questions, see my post here: meta.webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/354/…

@Lance, rep limits are lowered during the beta, you're closer than you think to being able to vote to close. (;

@rchern I realize that. I'm the biggest proponent on that. I've called out numerous Stack Overflow Moderators on that

@LanceRoberts Its 500 rep for Vote to Close

Ivo Flipse

3:53 PM

@LanceRoberts if a question is good, it should be open, but all others shouldn't even exist as closed questions

hehe @LanceRoberts, turns out I was the only one to upvote your question

@Ivo, now that's funny

wilhelmtell

4:16 PM

Afternoon, gentlemen.