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00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 22:00

12:07 AM
Could the developer tools for Chrome suck any more?
after using Firebug it feels like I'm in backwards land
I was less than excited to discover today that you can't customize keyboard shortcuts in chrome.
i'm just having a difficult time figuring out why google will create a product and only go half-way with it
almost as if everything is a concept
@JoePhillips Ah yes, the "good-enough" mentality.
Idea: Create thousands of half-assed products
@Joe - what do you find lacking, I'm curious as I've switched to Chrome for daily development....
12:11 AM
I use firebug mainly for CSS development
and to tweak settings and stuff
it just seems like a PITA to do in chrome
for instance, the "looking-glass" icon is at the very bottom in chrome... it's probably one of the most used tools I'm guessing?
right click, inspect element?
does the same thing? i'm asking as i've never used it
ok yeah same effect
yeah, but it acts really wonky
it highlights the element until I... breathe
say, @Nick, how do you trace HTTPRequests in Chrome?
was just wondering that earlier, ended up moving on to something else but it would have been convenient as I already had the page loaded in Chrome
you mean the resources tab, you want a more detailed dump?
resources tab is by size of time, click to to see request/headers/response, etc
For a much more detailed view: chrome://net-internals/#requests
12:42 AM
@CMS - what do you use for daily dev?
@NickCraver Ah, there it is! Tracing in FB logs to the console, was looking for something like that - but this will suffice.
@JoePhillips yeah, that annoys me too... The UI is pretty slick, but somehow it always feels like I'm wearing gloves.
I do prefer firebug's net panel, the same info's available in both, but firebug lays it out better IMO.
Related: Can someone explain to me the point of removing the status bar? Was it really annoying to anyone?
They'll add it back. Originally there wasn't a toolbar either, but with add-ons now... Everything rots over time.
it's easy to be minimalistic until you actually need to do something I suppose
12:59 AM
there's a status thing in the lower left when there actually is activity....or you mean something else?
I like to store icons on my status bar
I have like 6 or them in firefox
because I dont want or need them in their hugeness on my toolbar
ah gotcha, i'm used to keyboard shortcuts i suppose, only use 2 or 3 extensions/scripts with chrome
....only thing in my FF bar is FB
1:37 AM
I didn't miss a tune change did I?
Did someone break the SE clock or something? ;)
2 hours later…
3:29 AM
abuses the "flag" feature all over Michael
3:59 AM
gah...131 images...gonna have to pare down the list...some other time
4:16 AM
leftover pizza or leftover mac'n'cheese... the choices, the choices
4:27 AM
@Shog9 Obviously both
pasta on pizza?
works for me... I'll cover it in a healthy amount of applesauce just to be safe.
Well, mixing them together is your choice; I was imagining you eating them separately
bah, I'm a parallel eater!
2 hours later…
6:26 AM
Anyone around? I've just voted to reopen this question, I think the anti-subjectivists are going overboard...
Q: Is Functional Programming The Future?

D HoersterI read a very interesting article by Uncle Bob Martin yesterday where he raves about his newly found appreciation for Clojure specifically (and functional programming by inference). I've really only been exposed to OOP in my career (with a dash of VB6 in the beginning) and my only experience wit...

Unless someone is claiming psychic powers, "Is functional programming the future?" pretty much has to be subjective
@MichaelMrozek, and subjective is universally bad? I know there are strong feelings about that, but ...
Here's an example of another question for which you need psychic powers but which seems perfectly valid (to me):
Q: Desktop Application Longevity

OldJimSay if you had to develop a huge windows desktop app what language/technology you believe will be supported longer by MS (or by its manufacturer if not MS product)? What language/framework would give the app greater longevity without the need to be adapted or rewritten in order to run on newer v...

6:43 AM
@Benjol Subjective has become the biggest argument on the Trilogy to be honest. As far as SO is concerned yes it is
If it requires a discussion, and it's not about the Trilogy itself, it belongs on a forum.
And it's rare for discussions not to be subjective
hm, tough call then. The way I see it, this is the biggest community of developers on the planet (right?), so even if I do want an opinion on something subjective (and useful, I hasten to add), it's the natural/logical place to come...
I am not going to get caught in this one :) It's been widely debated on meta but I have to agree with the consensus that the SE engine is not designed for this.
Nor was it ever intended to be.
OK, but it wasn't designed with meta or chat to start with... and as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe there should be a fourth place ;)
@MichaelMrozek, but if Diago says "the SE engine is not designed for this", doesn't that that apply to all sites? (I don't think it does..., but that would seem to be the logical conclusion.)
6:56 AM
It does, but if people want to abuse it there's nothing stopping them; I'd just prefer they not do it on SO. If they want to make a separate SE site that does so, they can feel free
@Diago Sorry if I'm rehashing an old debate, I wasn't around much for that one (or don't remember it any more...)
OK, I'll just play devil's advocate, and then shut up. If we follow this train of thought, then the logical conclusion is that each question should only have One Right Answer (TM), in which case, the should we be going round deleting all the 'superfluous' answers?
It's not so much that the question needs to have one right answer as it needs to have a finite number of right answers. Questions where every answer is "right" because there is no right answer don't work on SO, because one of the essential parts of SO (voting) has no meaning
But a subjective question can have a 'best' answer, even if it doesn't have a right one...
7:14 AM
By a objective question the best answer is the most useful answer. By a subjective question the best answer is something totally different...possibly the most informative, well researched or something like that...they're both called "best" but they're the best for very different reasons.
i.e.: "Is Functional Programming The Future?" The best answer to this question would be a well researched and well sourced 200 page manifesto on the philosophy, culture and trends of CS and information technology. Thats not why I come to SO.
OK, but we are blurring two arguments, one is "we don't want subjective questions on SO", the other is "subjective questions can't work on SO".
I can accept the first, but I disagree with the second.
Hi, good morning
Hi @Lasse
@Benjol I plead ignorance on the second. I'm looking forward to the launch of "Not Programming Related" to find out.
I just love emergencies! Come in to work to find out that our build process no longer embeds licenses for controls into the assemblies :(
7:21 AM
@LasseVKarlsen, I take it the emergency is resolved if you're here now ;)
Not yet, waiting for build right now. License is embedded when I build locally, build server doesn't do it. Have logged on via remote and doing a manual build now. For all I know there's something finicky about the TeamCity setup that kills that step.
Morning @MarcGravell
Of course, it doesn't help that this particular project/solution has about 1200 warnings due to some generated code that is lacking xml documentation. I bet there is a line in there saying "You idiot! This won't work!"
@LasseVKarlsen, #pragma warning disable 1591
7:25 AM
Yeah, I know
Argh, Reflector download link doesn't work
meh, just read the IL in hex, then.... <g>
Ok, manual build adds the license, so that's not it, but not when built through TeamCity. Very nice, NOT :(
Aaaand, it turns out to be my fault! Lovely!
We are using TX Text, but due to the fact that we hosts the .NET runtime from a Delphi program, all required licenses has to be part of the very first .NET assembly we load from Delphi, otherwise they're apparently not found.
But! TX Text is a costly license, so we can't install that for every developer, so we have a pre-build build step on one project to embed the license, on my machine, and the build machines, which we have licenses for.
And recently we set up two new teamcity build agents, of course with new names, so the build script probably only embedded the license on the main build agent, not on the other two. Probably why the support case has the words "seemingly random between versions" in it :P
Ok, working again
8:00 AM
Of course, now I have to find out why I messed up, why didn't I follow procedure when changing the build machine names :(
8:53 AM
@LasseVKarlsen, FWIW, your profile still points to your 'old' blog...
@Benjol, thanks
Is there a way in this chat-system to quickly set focus to the textbox?
not apart from mouse click, I think
Q: How to display pressed keyboard shortcuts on screen during presentations or screencasts?

LernkurveThere are tools that monitor what keyboard shortcuts you just pressed and display them on screen. That is very handy during presentations or screencasts. To see an example, have a look at these Mac OS Quick Tip videos or this video (hardly visible black box in the right bottom corner of the scree...

(Just in case you wondered what I was doing on your blog)
"if anyone wants to use the program" :) that problem does kind of kill your motivation...
Yeah, you're right, changed it.
9:08 AM
@LasseVKarlsen, I didn't mean that it would discourage anyone from using it (though I guess it might), I meant that as a developer, not having any users (or any feedback) is a real bummer
Yeah, you're right, it is
But, I have used it plenty myself, and I almost always get questions after a session how I did that
So people are interested, just not that interested
10:13 AM
Reading this, I wonder if some manager didn't come across this :)
@Benjol, Reading what?
Sorry @LasseVKarlsen, the two "this" in my post are hyperlinks, you can't see
I forgot
I must install the chrome extension again
you want to take that up with Marc...
I have, it's not high on the current priority list (which I agree it shouldn't be)
Yeah, but he's noted my inability to see the links as well
10:17 AM
@LasseVKarlsen, wasn't that just for stars?
At least I understood it that way, I'll ask him later to make sure
There, now I can see the links on this machine as well :)
Granted, the extension removes background colors, but it's a small price to pay for now
I'd just greasemonkey the css of the links to be underlined...
I have very little experience with greasemonkey, except for installing scripts into it
Perhaps I should look into that
Migrating my ScreenKeys app to Kiln now, have 2-3 cases I should fix that I've postponed, perhaps it's a good time to do this this weekend
Well, I got you one user, apparently. It's a start :)
It's a 100% improvement (first user was me)
So yeah :)
You've effectively doubled the user-base in one go :)
10:24 AM
Very quiet in here today
shhhh we're sleeping
Oh sorry, I thought you were just in a drunken stupor slumped on the bar...
don't judge me!
Well, you were drooling... :)
(posted blind, yt blocked here, I think it's that scene)
bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller? bueller?
10:32 AM
@MarcGravell, one of my all-time favourites :)
@MarcGravell, as you're here, have you noticed that the code which takes out the post numbers in the starred list also seems to remove @names (see 15h ago by balpha - currently 8th in the list)
Actually, those names aren't really there ;p It simply doesn't add them ;p
(this only applies to explicit replies)
ok, yeah I wondered, but I couldn't tell from the transcript if it was implicit or explicit (I think)
@MarcGravell @MarcGravell, can the script be smart enough not to add the name if I already typed it?
it isn't really a question of smarts - it is the edge cases; for example, does it only apply for an exact duplicate? What if you did a reply starting @Marc? And what if there was another Marc in the room? Normally both would get a notification of a possible mentione, etc.
I'm sure there'll be plenty more edge cases :)
@Marc - thanks for changing the new message color, red was harsh on the eyes
10:45 AM
:108316, like this, for example :)
green = lovely
wasn't me...
take credit and like it!
@Benjol if you backspace, all bets are off ;p
and if you backspace outside the message box, all chat is off too
10:46 AM
@MarcGravell, your regex detects backspaces? wow! ;)
@Nick - not if you have an unsent message, it isn't...
oooo tricky!
well played sir
11:13 AM
25 new cases with work for ScreenKeys, totalling 32 hours of work
@LasseVKarlsen, 16 hours per user :)
as we say in the UK: "don't give up your day job" ;)
It's too easy adding cases in FogBugz :P
Someone has this site in a question I was helping with: dev.resihop.nu
view source on that....I don't....what the?
wth is that?
I have no idea, the browser correctly loads the .xsl and transforms it...but in 10 years I've never seen that
11:40 AM
Got my first support-case in my new FogBugz account at fogbugz on-demand :) wohoo!
12:10 PM
Hi there
Is gender boolean?
In what context?
Should I make it bit in sql table or nor?
If so, is man true and woman false?:)
Well, if it was me, I would do one of two things
either rename it to: GenderMale
or make it a CHAR and use M or F as values
I would store a list of genders and make the column tinyint :)
You could do that as well
Then you could store things like Hermaphrodite and Transgender or whatnot
12:12 PM
Maybe in future we'll other genders too :D
And when the aliens land, your software is already ready to use
some ufo's
yeah, right :D
maybe I should make it bigint?
It is never a good idea to get on the wrong footing with our new overlords
No, actually it is not
The transgender thing is not a joke...
And I'm not being politically correct
You could argue that you could register it as NULL (ie. unknown), but you'd damn better present it better in the GUI if you ever show it to someone
12:16 PM
In some contexts it is really important (sporting categories for example)
Actually I was talkin about alians
"He's a male, she's a female and I don't know what the hell you are", not good
Yeah, but you might want to consider an int and a type-list, or a CHAR and F, M, T or whatnot
Google "Caster Semenya"
char isn't good enough, if I want to use it in where condition
Who's Caster Semenya?
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS), also referred to as androgen resistance syndrome, is a set of disorders of sex development caused by mutations of the gene encoding the androgen receptor. The set of resulting disorders varies according to the structure and sensitivity of the abnormal receptor. Most forms of AIS involve a variable degree of undervirilization and/or infertility in XY persons of any gender. A person with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) has a female external appearance despite a 46XY karyotype and undescended testes, a condition once called "testicular...
12:18 PM
My co-workers would laugh, but I'm creating table for list of genders
}} Mokgadi Caster Semenya (born 7 January 1991) is a South African middle-distance runner and world champion. Semenya won gold in the women's 800 metres at the 2009 World Championships with a time of 1:55.45 in the final. Following her victory at the 2009 World Championships questions were raised about Semenya's gender. She was withdrawn from international competition until 6 July 2010 when the IAAF cleared her to return to competition. Early life and education Semenya was born in Ga-Masehlong, a village in South Africa near Polokwane and grew up in the village of Fairlie, "deep in ...
Of course, for most purposes, you won't want to get into that level of detail
You can just put "Other"
But sporting bodies are really going to have problems in the future with transgender stuff
I just want to have descriptions for gender id's
to know if 1 is man and 0 is woman
or smth like that
or xx/xy ;)
12:22 PM
Or you could have a sliding scale from one to the other, and let people choose
so maybe it should be a percentage :)
That's an interesting idea, they would kill me for that
I can see that working - "well I'm 80% male because I enjoy washing and ironing"
1:15 PM
phew, I passed that test and am mostly bloke
Quite fun though, I did it a long time ago.
1 hour later…
2:30 PM
I'm quite intrigued by this:
Any idea if it's intended to become a public feature to separate poll questions from regular questions
The poll feature has been shot down time and time again, I thought
It has. It's possible it's just for the SO team to poll users, and it's not ever intended to be used by users, I was just curious if there's been a mention of it before that I never noticed
@MichaelMrozek While it would be cool to have access to that, I could see all sorts of mediocre polls being created just because we can. :)
@GeorgeMarian As opposed to creating mediocre polls in question form :)
True, but those are discouraged and sometimes even closed.
At least those are open ended. I imagine a bunch of polls of the same type, just because someone didn't like the options in any of the other ones. "But my poll is better!" ;)
On a sidenote, it's rather freaky to get a notification before the message is even displayed on my screen.
3:23 PM
Attention Members of the Tavern
Currently Chat Feedback has 8.7k messages
We only have 8.4k.
Time to amp shit up
I'm going to need you guys to make 500 messages so we can surpass them.
Because the Tavern does not need to be on any particular topic, this should be easy for you.
3:24 PM
just post some off-topic stuff in CF and hope Marc grabs a few extra posts while migrating...
to be
a problem
I'm not going to try to surpass gaming.
or just get devinb back here
They currently have 10k more messages than us.
I'm wondering what the heck is going on in there honestly..
3:25 PM
they're moderating
they're debating what kind of questions are valid and not, been going on every time I peak through the door on the gaming room
You know, in some ways I'm encouraged by that
In other ways, I think they should just find a policy and stop talking about it
well, *that*'ll never happen
well, every time I've visited the room it seems they're trying to find a hard white and black line
ie. this question is good, this is not
3:27 PM
there doesn't seem to be any room for gray-area in the discussions, but perhaps they've changed by now
Sooo hows everyone doing on this wonderful friday?
Pretty good, Benjol doubled the user-base of my presentation software today by answering a question on Stack Overflow
Now I have to try to keep that user
@James Good
@James Hypoglycemic, apparently. nom nom nom
@James We are trying to come up with 300 messages so we can pass the number of messages Chat Feedback has. Good thing this room is not based on a topic.
3:30 PM
Meaning we can discuss creating messages in order to surpass another room.
@Chacha102 More ale, sir! ;)
passes George a pint of Ale
We need a /me command...
Quick info for all: You now have a little "about me" field in your profile
will be displayed to anyone clicking your avatar
I don't see it!!!
says something about it being after Noon...somewhere
@balpha And this be hidden where? ;)
3:32 PM
So, i typed sackoverflow.com today, realized what i did and closed it before anything bad happened.
@James LOL
@James +1
Its even worse because i'm at work
albeit my last day
@GeorgeMarian Is it so hard to find?
(you don't even have all those buttons)
yeah, look at all that crap
needz mor <blink>
3:35 PM
@balpha Oh, hey ...look at that. "About (edit)"
I instinctively ignored that whole block and was expecting something under it. :)
@balpha More /me please
@Chacha102 no, we've got enough of /you already
/me Why doesn't this work!!!
/balpha because I said so
^^^^ implement that
3:39 PM
One you're considered inactive, does chat stop updating the title?
I love the GET OFF MY LAWN!!! room. It is so peaceful and cap-filled
@balpha I don't always see a message count in the other rooms (all in tabs).
maybe there are no new messages?
3:41 PM
There's a bunch of new posts in chat feedback for which I didn't see a count.
HAHA! We've made 100 messages. Only 200 more to go!
@GeorgeMarian how do you know there are new messages?
Because I checked.
the number gets cleared as soon as you switch to that tab
3:42 PM
Scrolled down and look at that, more messages.
Right, but I looked at the tab before checking.
is it possible that you opened that tab (via Ctrl-Click or the like) but never ever looked at it?
(until doing that checking)
I don't think so. I've only been awake for a couple hours and had some errands deal with.
So you're sure you did have that very tab in the foreground previously?
@balpha Say something in chat feedback, I'm still inactive in that room.
3:45 PM
@balpha I'm pretty sure that I did not have it in the foreground before.
I see "3"
but I'm pretty sure he posted more than three comments
@GeorgeMarian that explains it
nope, nevermind
there is no way to reliably find out wether a tab has focus or not
3:46 PM
@balpha I'm guessing if you don't look at it once it never starts..
@balpha Ok, please explain. As I did see (3) from Chacha102 test messages.
you can only know about a change
i.e. focus/blur event
so before any of those events occur, the page doesn't know if it's in the foreground
so you can't assume you're in the background?
since you never looked at the page, there wasn't a single focus or blur event that occured
because there is no 'onFocus' event triggered when a page is opened directly?
3:48 PM
@Chacha102 precisely -- until one of those events occurs, I have to guess
@balpha Interesting, but that tab has been open for a while...from several days ago.
and since "hasfocus" is more probable than "isblurred" on pageload -- that's the guess I take
@GeorgeMarian so? if you never looked at it, it doesn't matter how long it has been open
@balpha But, I have looked at it. That just hasn't happened in a while. Since sometime yesterday.
6 mins ago, by George Marian
@balpha I'm pretty sure that I did not have it in the foreground before.
what browser are you using?
Right, as in today, since waking up and sitting at my computer.
This is in Chrome.
3:53 PM
@GeorgeMarian You sleep your computer?
Am I the only person who actually turns off their computer?
@GeorgeMarian Or just never turn it off?
@balpha Probably.
@balpha Yes. Well, I turned it off during my week-long trip. But otherwise my computer just sleeps.
@Chacha102 I never turn it off, no sleep. Just monitor power saving mode.
3:54 PM
Now the question arises if we want to cater to the power-consuming-non-computer-turny-offing population of America..
@GeorgeMarian this might also be related to a Chrome bug regarding tab title updates. I've put in a workaround that works most of the times, but not always
Q: Changing the window title when focussing the window doesn't work in Chrome

balphaI'm (ab)using the document title as some kind of a notification area. If the tab/window in question doesn't have focus at the time I want to notify the user of something, I change the window title to include some notification. When the window/tab comes back into focus, I want to remove the notif...

I see, eeeenteresting
I have concluded that most traffic jams are caused by Prius owners..
3:56 PM
WTF is up w/ hybrid drivers sucking at driving?
The Prius, especially.
It isn't that they suck at driving, it is that every few miles they have to pull over and hug a tree.
@George: try to drive with your nose picked
Seriously though, I keep having issues with Prius drivers causing problems on the high way. They're not the only ones, but they're the only ones I recognize specifically because of the car.
@Quassnoi Should I fling buggers at them?
@George: sorry, the joke was lost in translation :)
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