@ShadowWizard Yes, I was following events long before october 7th

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact there is just as much of a need for a norwegian state (a bunch of people living somewhere who want a country) as there is in israel

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact The issue is that is impossible to eliminate Hamas without targetting their main bases (schools and hospitals and such). According to International Law, making bases on schools and hospitals is prohibited because it is understood that the enemy will need to strike those schools and hospitals then.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact "they are being enabled to do it in the first place, especially at such a scale" - I'm assuming (as they were prosecuted) your not talking about order given to them but rather a rogue solidier. This is an unfortunate very rare that happens in literally every army...someone gets a bit too trigger happy. And by the way Ukraine has had much more casualties, and it's mostly not urban warfare. Frankly, Mariuopol has been as deadly as Gaza. Continued...

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Were people killing people and occupying colleges and getting as upset over that. And Mariupol had actual war crimes and genocide unlike Gaza.

"you can't give Gaza food because it may end up in the hands of Hamas" - It's not may. It's (with a few exceptions) will end in Hamas hands. Also, for the record, why is Israel responsible for giving Gaza food? Is Hamas responsible for giving Israel food? Do you know of any 2 countries at war where 1 is judged to be commiting a war crime by not giving them food. Gazans could devote less energy to terrorism and more to agriculture, you know. @AndreasmovedtoCodidact

~ The Battle Wizard

~ Where is everybody!?!

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@Starship ah, nice. Since when then?

@Starship the holocaust isn't an example, it's the climax of this. And it resulted in the birth of Israel, for good and for bad.

But yeah, looks like the only way for the Jewish population to be safe is having our own country. History proved it already. Question is, how to keep that country safe, without alienating the whole world against us.

I do agree we deserve to have such country. I do agree we have no choice but to fight for it, and on it, by force. However, many things that are done are... less fitting in my opinion.

As usual, it all boils down to religion and extremists following that religion. While our prime minister isn't even religious, he's enslaved by such people, totally fanatics, so it's the same as having such PM to begin with.

And on the other side it's even worse.

@Starship to be fair, not sure about Ukraine having more.

> Two years since the escalation of the war in Ukraine, more than 10,500 civilians have been killed, including 587 children, as constant bombardments, mines, and drone attacks have left a generation traumatized, displaced, and fearful for their lives, said Oxfam together with 50 other humanitarian agencies, today.

The numbers in Gaza vary and no way to verify, but lowest estimations that I've seen are around 20000, and even if thousands of those are terrorists aka people who took active part in the battles, it's still most likely over 10k people as well.

But it's also pointless to compare numbers.

War should end, no doubt. But Israel can't let it get back to how it used to be before, as it would mean it will just happen again, and worse: combined attack of our enemies that can literally wipe Israel off the map.

@ShadowWizard Marioupol alone had 30,000 civilians killed, where are you getting these stats from....

@ShadowWizard the war will only ever end when Hamas is destroyed. Someone who believes there sole god given purpose in life is to murder innocent people must be destroyed

@ShadowWizard What "fanatics"? The people who don't want to just run away and be cowards? Or actual fanatics?

@Starship link? My results were just the top Google result. oxfam.org/en/press-releases/…

Which seems reasonable. (as a source!)

Do note that it's very common for the weak side to inflate numbers, to get more positive attention.

@Starship problem is, Hamas can't be destroyed. It's same as saying "all the Palestinian people will be destroyed". Hamas became the Palestinian authority. Technically Israel can kill all the Palestinian people, and looks like people start to believe what Israel is actually trying to do. Personally I hope not.

The "destroy Hamas for a win" is the major obstacle Israel is facing, as it's just not something that can be achieved. It's hollow words, used to rally people.

At some point the war will end. And Hamas will still exists. Those are two facts. How to proceed from there? No idea.

@Starship fanatic, for me, means a person who is willing to kill in the name of God.

Not because it has any actual purpose or gain.

@ShadowWizard yeah unless you mean some of the arabs theres no fanatics

@ShadowWizard No. Not all Arabs/"Palestinians" are Hamas members. And yes, I think a case could be made for killing those who support Hamas to the point they will attack Israelis if given the opportunity. But, no, you can destroy a government and leave its civilians

Heres a source for "at least 25k" but yes that is from Ukraine:bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564. I personally believe them but there also some people saying up to 100k...rferl.org/a/…

And one for 75k:pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/…

Another for 75k:apnews.com/article/…

Read this:claireberlinski.substack.com/p/…

A source for 87k:euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/…

hmm OK, might take a closer look on the Ukraine numbers, but meh... even if true and even if the Russians killed 100k, it doesn't make any difference.\

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@ShadowWizard 90k dead people might disagreee

@Starship I'm sad for any human dying, but how does that affect the situation here? That's my point. If someone is doing terrible things, it does not justify someone else doing the same things. That said, in Israel case, the fire is aimed at people who are actually fighting, or so we're told. How true this is, I really can't know. If that's not the case, and we really kill innocent people without reason, I'm ashamed, but even so can't really do anything about it.

~ The Whispering Shadow

@ShadowWizard I would agree. If Israel is really killing innocent people they are 100% wrong. But think about something...in order to intentionally kill innocents you need dehumanization of the enemy. It is much harder to kill someone you feel is more similar to you. Do you know significants amounts of IDF solidiers/Israeli civilians whose believe that? I certainly don't (but then again I bet you know way more than I do given that your israeli).

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