Wizards Den

1:00 PM

:9921069 In my point of view, Israel is the terrorist state. Calling the victims of Israel's war crimes terrorists, doesn't sit right with me. That said, before you misunderstand what I mean, yes, the attack on October 7th was an act of terrorism, and deeply unacceptable.

It doesn't reply. Great.

@Sha Move the messages to trash if you don't want them here.

Tinkeringbell

@Starship Moved to here, it seems ;-)

There, got them a superping for you.

Now you two, behave!

(cause I'm outta here, I don't like wars, I'm getting a rock.)

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell Bling pling

@Tinkeringbell Nevah!

@Tinkeringbell Where would you like your rock delivered, and at what speed and trajectory?

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact What "war crimes" has Israel committed. I know there may have been like 1 or 2 instances of a solidier being overeager, but that is true of every military. Scholars of urban warfare from West Point have found that (for urban warfare) Israel has gone far above and beyond what is required by international law

Tinkeringbell

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Gulf of Mexico. Preferably a rock of about 10km in diameter, and a speed of 20km/s

Just 'drop it from above'.

Starship

@Tinkeringbell C'mon that's happened already. Let's get add some Zeros you know

Tinkeringbell

1:05 PM

@Starship I want the small mammals to survive, not to scrap the entire planet :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

:9921071 Even if hostages held by Hamas are mistreated, that is no excuse to be doing the same towards Palestinian prisoners taken as hostages by Israel (which the IDF has been proven to do. For years, they've been taking civilians on the West Bank as prisoners, with no conviction, and for barely any offense, and subjected them to torture. Even teenagers).

Starship

@Tinkeringbell why would you want that?

Tinkeringbell

@Starship Start evolution again.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Teenagers can kill people you know. Some of these terrorists are trained from the age of 2.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell Sure. Will do.

@Starship These teenagers simply protested the illegal annexation of the West Bank. Some of them threw some tiny rocks at military vehicles. I can ensure you that you would also be quite upset if somebody one day came and stole your land, took your house, and destroyed everything you held dear.

@Starship Illegal occupation of land. Intentional targeting of civilians, Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, and other helping organzations. Taking prisoners with no conviction. Organized and disorganized torture.

Starship

1:09 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact they protested by killing innocent civilians for fun. Rocks can kill people. If someone threw a rock at your kid, would you not be upset? Israel has not stolen anything from anyone. The West Bank Muslims still have their homes (unless they attempt or succeed at terrorism). Unless they do something to Israel, nothing of theirs is destroyed. And 98% of their population is under their full control.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact It is legal to "occupy" your own land

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Name a single incident of intentional targeting of civilians (where there is reason to believe it wasn't just some trigger happy solider or something)

Andreas moved to Codidact

> Scholars of urban warfare from West Point have found that (for urban warfare) Israel has gone far above and beyond what is required by international law

I have seen statements like this from the IDF, but it's very obviously disproven by looking at basic news reports. Gaza has been bombed to ruins, Israel has destroyed hospitals after hospitals, gone after the infrastructure, bombed routes they told civilians to use for evacuation, and fully intentionally starved the population.

@Starship Palestine does not belong to Israel. It's the land of the Palestinian people, not the land of Israel. Do mind I am talking about the land that was not given to Israel by the UN, but the land they have since annexed.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact you understand the news lies a lot right? Not just this war either? Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. Yes, terrorists bases (which are also often in childrens bedrooms and schools have been bombed). They have gone after terrorist infracture. That's hardly unreasonable. If they had fully starved the population, they would all be dead.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Name an example of bombing routes they told people to use for evacuation

Andreas moved to Codidact

> Israel has not stolen anything from anyone. The West Bank Muslims still have their homes

But that's simply not true.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Really? Name an instance that for no reason whatsoever, Israel intentionally destroyed their homes

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship No, I trust the news and the sources that I use.

Starship

1:16 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Palestine does not exist. It is a hoax. Palestine (Palaestinia) was a name given to the land by the Romans after the conquest of Judea (the Jews) 2000 years ago. It was named after a long extinct tribe (which, if you believe the Bible, acted much like terrorists as well), who were the Jews enemies, to shame them. It was used to refer to the territory, but there was never a nation of Palestine.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact What sources? Are you looking at Felestin or something

Andreas moved to Codidact

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact The second paragraph is my reply, not a citation. Formatting messed up.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact ??

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship This reply is rather enlightening to the differences between our perspectives. I fear our worldviews and understanding of the matters differ so much we can not find a mutual understanding at all, here.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact that's the point. Because you read newspapers like that, you have become indoctornated

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship NRK (Norwegian), for instance. Like this latest news article I linked to in which doctors are claiming Israel is shooting children in the head on purpose.

@Starship Sorry, I'm not convinced that scrutinized media in functioning democratic countries even have the ability to successfully run a scheme of misinformation and propaganda.

Starship

1:24 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact that article basiclaly says that 45 disagree with Israel and that war causes injuries and death. Of course shooting a terrorist is the chest is deliberate. WHat's wrong with that? In Gaza, Hamas uses women and children to be armed while faking a surrender just to murder Israelis.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Find a topic you don't really have a strong opinion on that's controversial and looking up hoaxes made up by the news about it. You'll be amazed.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship I've looked, and I don't believe in those conspiracy theories.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact then you clearly haven't looked well. Yes, 99% of it conspiracy theories, but that 1% is well, shocking.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact and too avoid political bias, use icognito

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship I use more privacy-focused search engines in multiple browsers on multiple devices on multiple networks, including stuff like Tor. Incognito mode makes no difference.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact it does. It prevents what you've looked at from influencing your results

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship Nope. Incognito only erases current browsing history and context from future uses of that browser, for the user.

Starship

1:36 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact really? Idk it's always given me much more pro-terrorist stuff whenever I use it so I figured it did that.

Mithical

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Yes, hospitals and infrastructure has been destroyed, in most cases because they were being used for military purposes by terrorist groups such as Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. In other cases, it was because individual commanders and soldiers took action without proper approval and were then removed from service, and those cases were illegal destruction of civilian infrastructure, and were or are being prosecuted by the military or courts.

There are cases of extremists blocking and destroying food and aid envoys, but they do not represent the policy of the state or military.

KennyBOT

~ Not everything is star-worthy...

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship It doesn't guard against fingerprinting, and it doesn't change the IP address the servers see. Besides, I don't really use Google or Bing, the biggest offenders.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact ok. Does something like that exist because I think that would be really useful

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Mithical I'm aware. On the other hand, they are often enabled to do it, and have support in the government.

Mithical

1:38 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Sniper fire, or even standard bullets, shot at a child's head or chest would not result in injuries that could be treated. It is far more likely that these injuries are being caused by shrapnel or flying debris, especially based on the picture included. Note that there are cases where the evidence strongly points to casualty and injury numbers being significantly inflated for propaganda purposes.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship VPN or the Tor browser.

Mithical

@Starship This is rare, especially in this stage of the war, but there are documented cases of, e.g., terrorists pretending to be hostages to lure soldiers into explosive-rigged buildings.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Example? Source?

Mithical

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I don't, because they often don't match what I've seen with my own eyes or fail entirely to report incidents that don't align with certain perspectives.

@Starship The people living there during the Ottoman rule and afterward became known as Palestinians, so arguing about semantics is a bit pointless. I do think that Jews and Israelis have a right to live in their cultural homeland - which there is plenty of historical and archeological evidence to support them having been forcibly exiled, killed, or converted while attempting to live there - but the people who were living there are people and do deserve basic human rights, such as homes.

Starship

@Mithical Yeah it happened more earlier because the IDF got used to it

Andreas moved to Codidact

1:39 PM

@Starship Sorry, there are way too much to go through to find one now.

Starship

@Mithical They weren't know as Palestinians at the time. Only after 1964, when the KGB started the PLO and stuff were they retroactively called that

Mithical

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Yes, there are unfortunately several extremists who now hold public office. The general public has been calling for their removal and elections to be held for months now.

Starship

@Mithical As previously stated, any examples of Muslim homes being destroyed by a deliberate command planned by the IDF (not just a random solider) without any readeon whatsoever

@Mithical I agree there are extremists. Many Arabs do hold public office in the Israeli government.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Mithical It strongly depends on the media organization. Israeli ones, for instance, cannot be trusted on this conflict. I would assume you also read non-Israeli media, though. A lot of English ones, such as American media, also are less trustworthy, again depending on the particular media. Fox News, for instance, rather untrustworthy. CNN, not the best, but they generally relay more trustworthy information.

Mithical

@Starship No, the phrase exists on documentation from much earlier than that, such as on Ottoman tapos and documentation from the British Mandate of Palestine.

Starship

1:41 PM

@Mithical yes, but with a different meaning. The Jews living there before the State of Israel were often called Palestinians, ex.Palestinian Post is (I think) now the Jerusalem Post

Mithical

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I do, but those generally fail to report on, for instance, the rockets that have fallen in my town, or killed people nearby, so I do generally find the Israeli media to be more accurate in that regard.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Mithical On the other hand, Bibi himself was put in office long ago by democratic majority. He is also part of the problem, and yes, I know people are now protesting against him.

Starship

@Mithical you Israeli!? I'd figure Israelis would know how they are because they are the ones constantly getting killed

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Bibi is part of the problem, but not for the reason everyone says. It's because he is a coward.

Mithical

@Starship I am aware. And a significant percentage of the police officers and military officers / NCOs are Arab or Druze Israeli.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Mithical The image included at the top is only one of many injuries. Sniper fire is likely an imprecise term, though. An actual sniper rifle does severe damage, yes, but various guns at longer ranges don't do that.

@Starship Been a member of the IDF, too.

Starship

1:47 PM

@Mithical The Druze tend to be fine/not terrorists, Muslims not really...

The Druze are also being attacked such as in the brutal Majdal Shams massacre carried out by the Hezbollah terrorists

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship 30 years ago, the Oslo agreements attempted to bring peace to the area. Benjamin himself rose up in opposition to that. He is directly responsible (as one of many) for the lack of success with that.

Mithical

@Starship I don't agree that Muslims as a general class are generally terrorists. There are a small radicalized minority, within Israel and without.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Oslo occords failed. No peace was produced. Indeed, since then, only more war and destruction has followed

@Mithical Agreed. What I am trying to say is that if you would go into a Druze village and be safe. If you go into Ramallah, you will have a high chance of being killed.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact When were you in the IDF exactly? Some time where there was likely no war? Because otherwise I'd think you wouldn't be this much pro-Arab

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Mithical The Norwegian news media generally cover each side (again, it depends a bit on the specific organization/company. The ones more to the right (like the Christian newspapers) focus way more on Israel's tragedies than Palestine's). That said, it does drown in the mass here, too, much because the consequences to each side are so different in severity and size. We had lots of articles about the October 7th attack.

@Starship Not me, @Mith.

I'm Norwegian.

Mithical

It is possible for Israel to live peacefully with its neighbors and non-Jewish residents. Whether you agree with the annexation of the Golan Heights or not, it is de facto a part of Israel, and the Druze and Jewish residents of the Golan cooexist peacefully. Israel has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, and doens't, e.g., carry out airstrikes there, since Israel is not being constantly targeted by threats from those areas.

It would be great if the other countries that declared war in 1948 and have refused to recognize Israel's legitimacy as a legal country, or house terrorist militias that carry out regular attacks, could get to a similar state.

Starship

1:53 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact No, not here. Norway is an extremely anti-semitics anti-Israel semi-muslim infiltrated nation.

Tinkeringbell

Okay @Starship at this point I'm going to have to ask you to police your tone a bit.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship That has no root in reality. I live here, I know what it's like here.

Tinkeringbell

But what you just said about Norway, well.. that's just not nice.

Starship

@Mithical For all the there is no Palestinians state, there is. Its called Jordan. It took 70% of the land being divided up. The original plan was that the remaining 30% would go to Jews. But, the point is that Jordan is 90% Palestinians and yet they make peace with israel. Why can't Gaza or west bank do that rather than doing things like October 7?

@Tinkeringbell Whats not nice. That was completely true. @AndreasmovedtoCodidact maybe you haven't seen it, or its called anti-zionist or whatever, but it exists

Tinkeringbell

@Starship If it were completely true, there is surprisingly little factual data/research/sources quoted in that claim.

Andreas moved to Codidact

1:57 PM

@Mithical It would also be great if Israel stopped its settlers. Unfortunately, no peace can arrive until both parties (or well, sides, there are multiple parties) stop doing the wrong thing. That said, in regards to your previous paragraph, I am not so convinced of the two-state solution anymore. Seeing how it works out, merging the countries into one, with equal rights for everyone (no more secondary citizen status), might be the best solution.

Tinkeringbell

It reads more like you're trying to dismiss someone's arguments by 'dismissing' the country the person lives in. Which is 'not nice'.

Starship

Its 3.4% Muslim. That is 182 times more in 40 years. They will soon totally overrun the nation

Tinkeringbell

I think everyone in this room is mature enough to know all media have their flaws, and hopefully everyone in this room is reading more broadly :)

Starship

@Tinkeringbell No, they said Norway is generally unbaised, which I disagree with

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship If by sionism you mean the idea that the land of Israel/Palestine exclusively belongs to Jews, and that they have the right to do whatever they want, there? Then yes, I am also anti-sionist.

Starship

2:00 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact No Zionism means that "the belief that Jews constitute a nation and have a moral and historic right and need for self-determination" Source:Wikipedia

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Starship No, I said our news sources generally try to do the right thing, and are trustworthy.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact anti-zionism is really 99% of the time just a way to avoid being called out on anti-semitism though

Tinkeringbell

@Starship That can be expressed like you just did. It doesn't require the tone you took in your first message, about ' extremely anti-semitics anti-Israel semi-muslim infiltrated nation'. "Semi-muslim infiltrated" is close to far-right-extremisism conspiracy theories.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact You are too naive

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell If anything, I appreciate the honesty of the tone. It more accurately points to where the problem is.

Spevacus

2:01 PM

@Starship Ayo... Way too far.

Tinkeringbell

@Starship Okay, at this point, I'm going to have to ask you to stop. Like Spevacus said, way too far.

Mithical

@Starship That'd be nice. If you want a real answer, propaganda and indocrination by parties that do not want peace with Israel, combined with dictatorships that murder people who speak out against them (e.g. by hanging them from telephone poles) and hijack any attempts to make change, such as the Muslim Brotherhood hijacking pro-democracy protests (not a fan of the title, but...).

Tinkeringbell

Take a 30 minute break. When you come back, I suggest trying to come at the topic from a different angle.

Mithical

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that's unlikely to happen. If it were to happen, though, I think it would need a very clear constitution on being a refuge state for Jews, otherwise one of the primary reasons for Israel existing in the first place would be lost.

Andreas moved to Codidact

I gotta take a trip out for a while, but I'll return to that discussion. But yes, unlikely to happen, very. The October 7th massacre, the following war, and continued and intensified expansion of settlers, have made any chance at peacefully living side by side far more unlikely.

Mithical

2:13 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact The definition of Zionism that I'm most familiar with is the belief in the right of Jews to peacefully exist in their ancestral homeland. That may or may not include a modern state, and makes no statement on other peoples in the area.

Starship

2:32 PM

@Tinkeringbell please explain was so bad about that exactly. That is truth

Spevacus

@Starship Whether you believe that to be true or not, it is extremely unkind to paint an entire culture like that.

Starship

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact by the way, Israelis aren't settlers any more than you are

@Spevacus I said mostly, not entirely. Obviously there are exceptions

Tinkeringbell

@Starship It goes against the CoC:

> Dangerous speech – any form of expression (e.g. text, images, or speech) that represents rhetoric that demonizes or denigrates a group of people in a way that depicts them as threats so serious that violence against them becomes acceptable or necessary; rhetoric that increases the risk of violence being condoned or committed against a particular group. This policy is inspired by the Dangerous Speech Project.
Bigotry & Discrimination – the poor treatment, expressed irrational suspicion, hatred, targeting, and/or intolerance of another person or group of people due to their ethnicity, age, …

(link: meta.stackexchange.com/conduct/abusive-behavior). As others said, do not paint entire cultures, religions (or their followers), nations (or their inhabitants) with such language.

Starship

"in a way that depicts them as threats so serious that violence against them becomes acceptable or necessary" - No one ever said that. "that increases the risk of violence being condoned or committed against a particular group" - Why would that the case exactly? Why would saying that provoke violence.

@Tinkeringbell I didn't paint all Muslims, I said mostly

Spevacus

I think we both know that's splitting hairs, here.

You can get your point across without resorting to that line of thought.

Starship

2:37 PM

Also, for the record, doesn't expressing support of Hamas clearly violate "Extremism – promoting or supporting violent actors, hateful organizations, or groups organized under a common name, sign, or symbol that promotes an ideology of bigotry and discrimination, heavily advocates for violence against others or are tied to activities such as homicide, drug trafficking, kidnapping, acts of mass violence, and spree killing."

Tinkeringbell

I think I'm not going to get split ends over this, you're entitled to your opinion, and politics can be discussed in chatrooms but we're not going to do the "they're all 'mostly'" either.

Starship

@Tinkeringbell How about "a significant amount of them are"

Tinkeringbell

No. And if that's how you're going to try to want to have a discussion, at this point, it's over.

Starship

@Tinkeringbell so in other words, I can't express a perfectly reasonable and fact based opinion, when I am clearly not painting an entire religion that way and I am clearly not trying to encite violence. Why?

Tinkeringbell

Because I interpret the CoC like saying you can't. If you disagree, go find a CM, and get them to tell me that calling most/a significant amount of Muslims what you called them is okay.

Starship

2:41 PM

@Tinkeringbell please explain why you think that (and why you think saying you support Hamas doesn't violate that)

@Tinkeringbell I didn't call all Muslims that. I said that mostly (and I would be willing to change to a significant amount) are X. This is pretty much ground in fact.

Tinkeringbell

Later perhaps. I'm going out for dinner now. I do not want to have to freeze this room just so I can have a dinner in peace and not return to some trash fire later.

Starship

@Tinkeringbell okay...well ill make it a nuclear fire instead. is that okay then

Tinkeringbell

@Starship Edited.

@Starship No, do not.

Starship

@Tinkeringbell Aw....

But that sounded fun...

Tinkeringbell

Honestly, the world sucks enough as is already. I hope we can just agree on that, and let me have my dinner in peace?

Starship

2:43 PM

@Tinkeringbell Fair

Spevacus

Enjoi dinner

Tinkeringbell

@Starship If you think nuclear fires are fun, have you watched Chernobyl? :D Good series! :D

Starship

@Tinkeringbell @Tinkeringbell @Tinkeringbell ooh this works I ping mutliple times!?

Tinkeringbell

If you haven't go do it while I have dinner.

Spevacus

Oh my gosh Chernobyl's FANTASTIC

Tinkeringbell

2:43 PM

@Starship No it pings just once, thankfully :P

Starship

@Tinkeringbell Support Chernobyl. That's why we should reinstall the Soviet Union. Chernobyl forever!

Anyways, now let's make chernobyl here...anyone got a bunch of bad operating personnel and management and some bad reactor. Anyone have one of those, because if not I'll buy it on Etsy or something:)

KennyBOT

3:45 PM

~ Shadow

Andreas moved to Codidact

4:20 PM

@Mithical In the end, it's the use of the term that matters. It's not used much here, in my language, mostly because it isn't particularly descriptive. And when it's used elsewhere, it ca mean a lot of things. The Israeli government for instance, as far as I've heard, uses it as some kind of a "holy" word that they use to defend their actions. That doesn't make much sense to me.

@Spevacus Throwing some radiation at @Spevacus

Seriously? Editing my comment 4 seconds before the deadline to remove a typo... introduced another one?

@Mithical As long as it's not worded like now, such that the country is a Jewish country for Jewish people, since that effectively makes every non-Jewish citizen a second-rank citizen. If we disregard history for a short moment (which isn't really fair to do), there isn't actually a need for its own country for Jews, to exist. Many other ethnicities and/or religions don't have their own nations for themselves, and that works fine for the most part, many places.

My own country's constitution mentions a few ethnicities/minorities as having special protection, such as the Sami. There is also a special reason for that; they were victims of suppression for many years; their children often taken from the parents to "become Norwegian".

Jews used to be mentioned in our constitution, but in a far less welcoming way. Pretty much, it said that "Jews are not welcome to our kingdom". It initially listed 3 groups. One after another, they were removed as unwelcome, but it took a while.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

If you were to have a one-state solution in the area, effectively a merger between Israel and Palestine, I think it should mention both Jews and other ethnic groups in the area, to provide every one of them/you equal protection.

Is it really necessary to keep the original reason for Israel to exist, intact? From what I can see, that is now being used to justify a lot of abuse to the existing non-Jewish population in the area. Just the same way a lot of it is their land, that land also belongs to the Israeli citizens that grew up there, and never lived elsewhere. I had a conversation with @Sha about this a while ago. Let me see if I can find it.

Here, I think?

Feb 26 at 16:20, by Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizardLoveZelda But the Israeli people aren’t from those places. You are from Israel. You were born there. You grew up there. Israel is your home. Just the same way Palestine is the home of Palestinians.

Also, I'm noticing my English is falling into a pit lacking a wide vocabulary. D;

KennyBOT

5:40 PM

~ I'm a little bit lonely...

Tinkeringbell

6:26 PM

I'm back. Glad to see no nuclear disasters or thrash fires 🔥 :D

Andreas moved to Codidact

6:49 PM

@Tinkeringbell Don’t you acknowledge my presence?

Tinkeringbell

7:39 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact you're a controlled burn... More of a candle :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell So a reactor meltdown?

Tinkeringbell

Candle. Nothing too harmful if well-contained :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

7:55 PM

mhm…

Shadow Wizard

blinking

wondering if I'm in the Den

OK, time to read, I guess...

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact well yeah, because it's in a different room.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact as you know, I can tolerate almost anything.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact "the attack on October 7th was an act of terrorism" - so at least you do believe innocent people were killed in that attack, including women and children. Many people don't believe even that.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard not sure where you're getting your "many" from there, most people I see seem to agree with that too...

Shadow Wizard

@Starship nope, even 10 would ping only once, when in one message.

@Starship @Starship @Starship @Starship @Starship @Starship

See? ;-)

@Tinkeringbell luckily very few inside of Israel, but sometimes I do read stuff from Hamas supporters, who sometimes deny even the things Hamas said. I might find something if you want, but it was some popular blog with millions of readers/followers hence "many".

Tinkeringbell

8:12 PM

@ShadowWizard Ah, two opposites, from two countries/groups at war.

Shadow Wizard

@Starship if I may ask, what makes you believe Israel, and not Hamas, in this conflict? Were you following the events before this war has began?

Tinkeringbell

Most people here are part of neither and hold much more reasonable (imo) opinions ;)

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell yeah, I mainly read Israeli media, but sometimes do check other sources, kind of "sanity check", though it usually just drive me insane. :/

@Tinkeringbell yeah, figured that. Europe in general appears to not take either side, however by calling to end the war and calling to ban Israel if war goes on, they kind of taking Hamas side, IMO. Fair or not, dunno.

The official Israeli stance is that we can't stop the war because it would mean losing it, and showing weakness.

I don't really agree with that but... that's how things are.

Tinkeringbell

As far as I grok the viewpoints here, they're all mostly focused on getting the civilian casualties on both sides to stop. And to be honest, it seems civilians in Gaza are a lot worse of by this whole thing than the ones in Israël...

Shadow Wizard

Argh, dishes calling me. "wash me Shadow, wash me."

Will read Tavern later. :)

Tinkeringbell

8:17 PM

Hahaha go wash dishes. Even war won't stop chores :P

Shadow Wizard

:D

KennyBOT

~ Not everything is star-worthy...

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizard Kinky dishes

@ShadowWizard Probably because Hamas are muslims. Some of the messages (especially the deleted ones), showed a view that muslims are subhumans.

Tinkeringbell

8:32 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Probably better not to put words in someone's mouth when discussing things like this. Let them express it their own way, and explain their own answer :)

Shadow Wizard

8:56 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact done. Some got personal washing, some got into the dishwasher.

None broke, so guess it was a success. ;-)

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact perhaps, but some take sides e.g. because they admire power, and Israel is the more powerful entity in this conflict.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell If that is not the case, I have gotten the wrong idea of what those messages meant. So in that case, a clarification is helpful.

Much casing.

@ShadowWizard Manual and automatic dishwasher, side by side.

Tinkeringbell

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact in which case, just waiting for their answer would probably have gotten you the same as replying for them first. So... Just wait, let them answer in their own words ;)

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell That is true. I guess I am just a little trigger happy. ;)

Tinkeringbell

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Well not everything can be dishwasher safe. I wash the good knives by hand too after every ~~murder~~ dinner

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact actually the dishwasher is low, so kind of below me, not side by side. ;)

Tinkeringbell

9:05 PM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact not a good thing when wars are involved :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

Knives? How mundane. Real vikings use axes.

Tinkeringbell

I'd love a good food axe for chopping garlic!

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizard Caste system at home?

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell I manually wash the plastic containers, though they can be in dishwasher in theory. But too lazy to place them there along with the other dishes, need to make place, think how it won't fall or overflow etc. ;)

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact exactly ;)

FOX 9000

@ShadowWizard want (?)

Andreas moved to Codidact

9:08 PM

@Tinkeringbell Garlic sounds good. I’ve lived a week on licorice now. Bought food today, but forgot to make any proper meal with it.

Shadow Wizard

And above me, wife! She doesn't wash any dishes, but she kind of doing everything else. :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizard Pesky wives think they own the world!

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard I put all the plastic in the dishwasher. Ain't got no time for manually washing that XD. Even if it means running it twice :P

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact go coooook.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact nah, just me. ;)

Tinkeringbell

Want some easy recipes?

Shadow Wizard

9:09 PM

@Tinkeringbell good thinking! But meh, I'm used to it.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell The easiest recipe is the one you don’t follow.

@Tinkeringbell Microplastic

FOX 9000

No associated word found for Microplastic.

Tinkeringbell

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I always find those hard XD I've never learned to cook

Andreas moved to Codidact

>>link microplastic fatigue

FOX 9000

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Link added.

Tinkeringbell

9:10 PM

I'm self taught and not yet at a "no recipe" level

Andreas moved to Codidact

>>link microplastic death

FOX 9000

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Link added.

Andreas moved to Codidact

I cook better without recipes. But that’s just because I’m awful at following orders when it comes to food.

Tinkeringbell

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Ah see, for me the recipe isn't an order but an instruction manual :P

Andreas moved to Codidact

Same thing.

KennyBOT

10:14 PM

~ Echo ... E c h o ...... E c h o .....

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