Discussion with Sam about Meta site

Sam

8:28 AM

@ShadowWizard Hi

do you know how to invite guys in a chat?

Shadow Wizard

8:47 AM

You just did it by using the @

You can also invite any chat user from his chat profile page, e.g. chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/users/131713/pops

There is "Invite this user to" button then you can select which room to invite him to

but please don't abuse it, I saw in the past you invited someone who didn't have any idea what you want from him

Feb 11 at 18:22, by Stijn

Why was I invited here?

Going now so again, don't invite everyone just someone you really have good reason for him/her to be here.

Sam

9:34 AM

@ShadowWizard I've get banned again on meta.stackoverflow

ok, it's not that huge problem

I think it's not fair like many other things here (guys were speaking of meta as an harsh place.. someone agreed that some rules are not that fair, but that's not a problem)

I would like to continue this chat asking people I've been speaking in this days which were my biggest mistakes

if they see anything good in my intent

and what would be a better way to avoid arguing and contributing to meta in a better way

with calm, the first topic I would like to face are 2:

1) which were my biggest mistakes

2) what's people opinion about the automatic ban for unpopular questions on meta.so (which are easily being downvoted)? i.e: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/222949/…

I will mostly listen.. people will speak.

@undo: do you like this proposal?

Shadow Wizard

Agree it's not very fair, my advice is you start being more active on Meta, answer questions, gain upvotes on your answers.

Eventually it will lift your ban just be patient.

Sam

@ShadowWizard yes, the ban is not a problem. But since I always try to improve the things I would like to try see also other people opinions..

I always try to have my brakes well working on a car to avoid accidents. I try to avoid problems before they happen.

And I think that what happened to me (being banned 4 times, 2 automatically, and 2 not) it's for sure bound to my errors, but also easier to happen if some rules are not completely fair. In my opinion this can lead to making people upset..

And if this community can make an effort to recognize and solve unfair rules / behaviour, I'm happier

Do you agree?

Shadow Wizard

9:50 AM

I agree to some point, yes.

It's a combination of not enough written guidelines, misunderstanding existing guidelines, maybe language barrier of some sort and human nature.

Sam

@ShadowWizard yes, I've tried, in the wrong way, to say how psychology explains really well some issues which I see on this community. I've also linked an article of SE blog which was saying the same..

but I was too much upset...

Do you know any other good member which could be interested on this topic?

Shadow Wizard

10:36 AM

not really @Sam, sorry... try asking in the Tavern

Sam

11:16 AM

I've invited some people here. If you are reading this line you may want have a very fast look at the last line of the discussion, and give me an advice.
Otherwise I apologize for stealing your time.
Thanks guys.

@Manishearth: welcome here

Sam

2:17 PM

I've fount site like this: and for sure it's really sad

sergworks.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/why-stackoverflow-sucks

ProgramFOX

2:38 PM

Hi.

Why have I been invited here?

Hiroto

3:08 PM

@Sam please don't mass-invite users to chat without good reason or you'll be chatbanned on chat.SE

You are in the wrong and you were suspended for it. End of question.

Blue Ice

3:19 PM

@Sam Yes, it is sad that some people could not get the answers that they were looking for. However, SE is not always a good fit for every question, and every question is not always a good fit for SE. Stack Exchange is exclusive about which answers are appropriate because it is used as a resource as well as a place to ask questions.

minitech

3:30 PM

What is this?

Sam

Hi.. you have been helping me the first time I got automatically banned from meta.SE - I've tried to write here in a very polite way about my concern, just asking for your opinion about the fairness of autobanning for unpopoular question on meta (since they get easily downvoted).

If you believe in this cause. I would appreciate if you read some lines

@Hiroto sorry for disturbing you. I've not been inviting in a massive way. I've looked at the people with which I spoke and invited here. Hope it's not worth of a ban. If I made a wrong thing I apologize...

Ben Collins

@Sam how many times do people have to tell you what's going on before you listen? You didn't get banned because you expressed an unpopular opinion. you got banned for expressing that opinion over and over and over and over again in question after question after question, and never contributing anything positive to Meta in that time

Sam

@BenCollins wait. I'm speaking of another ban

I'll link it

Ben Collins

if you had stopped after the first one, you'd be fine.

Sam

@BenCollins but you are speaking of SR?

Ben Collins

3:34 PM

@Sam I'm talking about your auto-ban on Meta. Because that's what this room is about, and that's what the messages I replied to are about, and that's what you're going on and on and on about.

Sam

@BenCollins ah, ok.. but I've wrote just one time that in the FAQ section was missing the duration of the suspension

I asked only if a non exponential growing punishment was already tested

that's all what I've asked in the downvoted question

in which I got strongly downvoted and then banned

I know I had been very heavy

Ben Collins

@Sam you didn't get banned for one question.

Sam

yes.. I wasn't banned before.. than I got 14 downvotes there and I got auto-banned

I know I had been very heavy, but you would also agree that it's really unfair to ban someone for opening a question like that. Ask everyone.

I really tried to be nice, diplomatic in putting that question: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/222949/…

Ben Collins

Sam, you are being very stubborn about this. And you're just plain wrong. Look:

you have 4 questions (out of only 11 total) that have been heavily downvoted.

You got banned because of the overall lack of constructiveness in your meta participation. Not because of a single question.

I wouldn't be surprised if half of all of those downvotes came after people read your argumentative comments, because you just don't know when to let it go. After mods and other users have explained to you how it works, you persist in arguing that "the way it works is wrong" and you are right.

It's repeat behavior, and now people are just tired of arguing with you because you have failed to persuade them of your case, but you won't stop. That's why the downvotes (my speculation).

Sam

@BenCollins this, for sure, is possible.

Ben Collins

3:46 PM

@Sam great! so then learn from this! let it be a character-building exercise, instead of an exercise in futility. You can't win every battle - and you have definitely lost this one. Let it go.

Sam

@BenCollins yes.. for sure it was an important experience.

but the things which I was saying weren't wrong..

I know the world is not a fair place.. and being stubborn is stupid

What should I do now?

Ben Collins

@Sam yes, they were. And this is exactly what I'm talking about: you can't accept the possibility that you're wrong. That's what's driving people mad here.

Sam

@BenCollins for sure I was wrong under some POV

being stubborn was my biggest mistake i.e.

Blue Ice

@Sam You need to stop worrying about what you said. Nobody here holds grudges. :) So forget about it and move on. We should focus on what we can do for you in the future, not the past.

And most importantly, let's talk about how you can ask more constructive questions. :)

Sam

yes.. but.. my last question wasn't constructive?

Maybe it was too late.. because the people were already angry..

Ben Collins

3:52 PM

@Sam it could be construed as constructive, if you didn't have a history of posting questions for the sake of arguing about the rules

Sam

@BenCollins yes, I understand

Blue Ice

@Sam it's more of a pattern of behavior than a single question.

Sam

yes, I understand

but wear my clothes.. ok, my biggest mistake for sure was being stubborn

but what lead me to 4 ban

was just debating about the guidelines in one section which should be used for that--- or however it's like I saw what happened to me...

when I got banned for 30 days without a warning.. without can read it on the rules.. I was really sad

Ben Collins

@Sam, did you read this?

35

A: Get rid of the question ban on Meta; suspend actively harmful users manually

First off, an explanation of the two status tags: Declined: We won't remove the q-ban entirely. See below. Completed: We already suspend actively harmful users manually, and will continue to do so. In addition, we've modified the score threshold for q-bans (again) based on a fresh analysis of t...

you could really help yourself on Meta in particular by reading stuff that's already posted. Part of your problem is that you want to have arguments that have already been had, probably multiple times

In particular:

> Unlike suspensions, you can "work your way out" of a q-ban: just post some helpful or insightful answers.

and

> even for those who start off on the wrong foot and... follow up by jumping up and down on that foot... it's not too late to reverse the trend: take the time to learn about how this network of sites work, share your knowledge with others, and you'll be automatically granted permission to post questions again.

Sam

@BenCollins I've read that article now. I will try to exit the automatic ban. And I will stop opening questions which are costructive but impopular...

also if I think it's not very fair

Ben Collins

4:01 PM

@Sam the fact that you hadn't read Shog's answer is a good indicator that you haven't taken the time to learn how to use the site(s). You should read other answers before you post your own.

Sam

ok.. but one time I opened a question citing what the guidelines were saying and the question was closed. I got people saying that article (really good written, of course not from me, but from the staff) was obsolete :O

I mean.. people are human.. they are not always rational... I cited an official guideline and people said: "you are wrong, and it's obsolete"

Ben Collins

are you talking about this?

-14

Q: How to vote to review this community guidelines?

I think there is a problem. Questions like that comes closed becaouse they asks about tools: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2477170/javascript-review-refactoring-tools Yesterday I was looking for an IDE in PHP wich can work like VS in the following mean: 1) support go to definition for inc...

that's closed because there's a duplicate question. That's the only question you've posted that's been closed.

Sam

no.. wait

I will bring it to you

however.. you know.. if people want to find an excuse for saying something is not good. They will always find it.. we are human..

-2

Q: How do you interpret this blog article about guidelines on SE?

I would like to draw your attention on the following topic. I will cite some part of the guidelines. "We prefer questions that can be answered, not just discussed." "We never claimed that subjective questions were horrible abominations that should never be asked." "Because we believe so deeply ...

discussion question-quality answer-quality

the article is saying that a bit of flexibility is always welcome

and also that is impossible to being totally objective and unopinionable

I understand I was really stubborn.. but this is the answer from a moderator: "Do you have a point here, or do you just enjoy wasting our time?" :(

Ben Collins

@Sam you have a history of being argumentative. People don't respond well to that.

Sam

@BenCollins yes.. I know.. I made a mistake... I would just ask for a second chance..

Ben Collins

4:10 PM

@Sam this is a terrible question. that's why it was closed

@Sam YOU HAVE N CHANCES, DUDE

post constructive stuff, get unbanned. simple as that.

Sam

@BenCollins yes.. I will do

but why do you say it was terrible?

Ben Collins

your question wants people to argue about a blog post which doesn't have a lot to do with how a particular community governs itself. It's just inviting argument, and isn't going to lead to any kind of constructive transfer of knowledge.

Sam

@BenCollins ok, I understand.. it was meant to say that flexibility is a really good thing

and that I wasn't the only in saying that..

this was my purpose

Ben Collins

@Sam there's no problem with saying that, but again - that particular argument has been had a great many times on meta, so unless you have something new to add then you shouldn't try to have those arguments all over again.

Sam

@BenCollins ok.. I understand.. but Gilles was harsh in asnwering

not very diplomatic or polite or nice

try to wear my shoes..

which emotions would have you experienced in reading his answer.. ?

Ben Collins

4:15 PM

@Sam try to wear his. you have spent untold hours in the last few days arguing and arguing and arguing that you are right and the world is wrong, and all of your "contributions" to the site in this time period is devoted to these arguments. Can't you understand why we would be frustruated at that, and react as though you are wasting our time?

If you devoted half this level of dedication to posting useful content, you would have absolutely no problem with suspensions and q-bans.

Sam

@BenCollins yes.. I understand him very well

@BenCollins I did a small effort in posting nor arguably content for going out from the first q-ban..

but.. members shouldn't get one month of ban because they had irritated the moderators... :(

I know a moderator is human

but I got banned for opening many questions which should be allowed.. but actually they are not...

this is the reason why I ask a second chance to Undo and Gilles

I promise I will only contribute in positive way from now on

It would show this community doesn't keep grunge and rancor against stupid stubborn people like I had been

Ben Collins

@Sam we don't hold grudges - the suspensions eventually wear off and you can work your way out of a q-ban

Shog9

You invited me into this room, @Sam

3

That is all I have to say. Good day!

Ben Collins

@Sam sounds good. be sure and take the time to learn what a "positive contribution" is.

Feeds

Ben Collins has frozen this room.

Transcript for

Discussion with Sam about Meta site