« first day 

12:04 AM
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I think there are obviously going to be your 1 exception who does see the enemy as lesser, but I think that in general evidence is pretty clear that the IDF has gone to greater lengths than just about any other military to help civilains. You may find it interesting to learn that destruction in war often happens as a side effect of your wtrying to blow people up, not for sadistic glee.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I'm amazed that you blame Israel for the existence of Hamas/Hezbolalh. Is the US simialrly responsible for AL-Qaeda? Britian for ISIS? This is nonsensical.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael The idea that Israel is occupying its own land is nonsensical. And Israels land is much more than what was given to it. Even the "Palestine mandate", modern Israel (plus West bank/gaza) and Jordan wasn't all of it. Israel also includes Lebanon, the Sinai, and much of Syria. Most Israelis don't even know how much of thei rland was stolen from them....
@AndreascondemnsIsrael Hamas was voted into power because the Gazans are radical muslims most of whom believe their sole purpose given by god is kill non-muslims. That results in them choosing governments whose sole purpose is to kill non-muslims. This is not that difficult to understand.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael You can't possibly equate that one time a group of israelis in modiin or something decides to occasionally to fight back to protect themsleves with the thousands times more than muslims brutally murder people constantly
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I'm sorry but Hamas attacked Israel because its a raidcla muslim group whose goal to annihilate the entire non-muslim world in a mega-october 7, not desperation
@AndreascondemnsIsrael More Japanese died in WW2 than Americans. Were the Japanese right? The fact that (fortunately) muslim terorrists die more than their victims does not make them right
@AndreascondemnsIsrael What is wrong with a country have a "settlement" in its territory. Sweden for example has something like 25,000 settlements in its own land but no one complains because its understood that countries have towns/cities/villages in their territory because thats how a country works
@AndreascondemnsIsrael UNWRA is a hamas puppet. Hamas's leader in lebanon for example (now dead thankfully) was a member. He's not the only one. Hamas and UNWRA are 1 and the same, save for rhetoric
12:36 AM
0_0
So. MANY. PINGS
@AndreascondemnsIsrael honestly, you're miles away, and having filterened new
also, I'm going to put my foot down on the politics
We've people on both sides, they're nice and civil but, I feel like keeping the war out of here is a good idea
@JourneymanGeek You know why dont we make a room for Andreas debates people about I/P
@JourneymanGeek@[email protected].@Mithical@Spevacus@ShadowWizard here's the new chatroom:chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/1775/…
 
6 hours later…
6:24 AM
@Starship that's a very huge exaggeration. (1) How will cutting US military spending even in half hamper any efforts to prevent nuclear war? I've seen the numbers, you should too. (2) bringing in nuclear weapons implies the US is developing nukes, which AFAIK is wrong. If true, America would be violating half a dozen global treaties. The whole idea behind MAD is to gradually step down the nukes until no two countries at war can drive humanity to extinction.
@Starship None of what you said justifies murdering 40000 (probably more) Gazans in the span of a year. Yes, the mullahs in chage of my country can fashion themselves freedom fighters precisely because of recent Israeli war crimes, and thus strengthen their own grip on the population and their crackdown on dissidents
@Mithical is it debatable that IDF could have prevented thousands of innocent deaths if only they cared a bit more about preserving lives?
@M.A.R. uh, the US is developing nukes.
They just are not testing it physically
If not, then arguing intentions is pointless. Those children are just as dead.
@JourneymanGeek Nuclear military tech? Sure, but more devastating H bombs? No
Absolutely
and.. I'll be shifting all this to a side room in a bit
@JourneymanGeek nah come on, not like any on-topic discussion is going on
If people were ranting about a new design bugfeature, sure.
I realize that uncomfortable discussions like this make you tingly all over
It's just static electricity.
Also . . . Dang did this blow up
It did
262 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
3 hours later…
9:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek Physical distance does not equal filtered news.
hmm pity I have no time to read it all, anyway agree it's better this way i.e. separate room. Thanks, @Journeyman :)
@Starship it's only the internal crime (among themselves), if it's Arab who commits a crime against Jewish... it's considered almost automatically as terror attack and handled with extreme force and efficiency.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael Pardon the second link; it's irrelevant (as far as I can tell, there's a paywall). I must have reopened the tab by mistake while picking links.
@Starship they will, if Israel will "surrender" i.e. stop the war, sign contract to stop any attack for several years, and release all the prisoners.
 
1 hour later…
10:37 AM
@ShadowWizard If an arab tries to kill a jewish. Robbery not so much
@ShadowWizard You understand if Israel surrenders Hamas and friends would attack and if no one fought back they would annihilate israel
@M.A.R. In my opinion US military speding is way too low
@M.A.R. You understand that the people in your country got 6 billion from Biden, who then used it to give to Hamas who used it for OCtober 7, starting the war.
@M.A.R. I happen to think killing terrorists isn't murder
3 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
@Starship um, seriously? The dead children were all terrorists?
@M.A.R. most of them
@Starship when 'people in my country' were receiving 6 billion from Biden I must have been asleep because I missed it.
@Starship The children are terrorists? Are you for real?!
@M.A.R. Well the government took it and gave it to hamas but yes you should be awake more:)
@M.A.R. Yup. 2+ and they're trained to kill.
10:51 AM
Wow. OK. I'm not gonna continue this discussion with someone who endorses killing children.
,,,,
@Starship Right. So I'm going to point you at the COC
endorsing killing people's almost certainly a COC violation
You're either trolling or are horribly misled. I can't fix the damage your news source has done to you.
but but...
the holy trinity.
Duct tape, wd40 and bailing wire...
@JourneymanGeek superglue, 1, 2, 3!
HERETIC!
(actually I'm a big fan of nanotape)
2 messages moved to Chimney
hm, that's not the right room but whatevs
10:57 AM
Can't hear you over the sound of how fast I'm gluing things
including your fingers
@JourneymanGeek what have you DONE
My inner bureaucrat's eye is twitching
@JourneymanGeek So in the case endorsing killing anyone, even if they are shooting a gun at you, is against the CoC?
11:00 AM
Yes?
@Starship you seem pretty nonchalant for someone who's being shot at by 2 year olds.
@M.A.R. I'd recommend disengaging.
Sure. I'm out.
@M.A.R. I mean, he's trying to get a reaction. Yanno
11:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek In the future, please moderate the bad behaviour instead of tossing out everything.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I did
@Starship yeah, true. I meant all along "fatal crime" i.e. attempts to kill others, "just" robbery is ignored anywhere here. lol
@Starship well, yes, that's why such kind of agreement is a bad idea. Need something in the middle.
@JourneymanGeek No. You’ve tossed out a serious and important conversation from the Tavern to let it die and rot in a room that nobody is interested in engaging in because trolls are allowed to take control by going into the territory of absurdity. It’s annoying, because you do this every time it comes up. You let me, Mith and other people engage, then when somebody takes it off the limits, you sanction the entirety.
Question is all kinds of agreements is who's going to enforce the decisions.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I mean, anyone who wants to be engaged can
If someone is uncomfortable, they can choose to opt out
11:22 AM
@JourneymanGeek why? They'll burn there among the boiling smoke. ;)
@Starship I think you don't fully understand the meaning of "endorse" in the context of SE.
Anyway, calling to kill people is indeed against the Code of Conduct.
For example, if you truly believe it's legit to kill children we can't judge you even on that, however we can ask you to save such opinions to a different channel, not in Stack Exchange.
I wasn't just thinking of the trolls (but yes, that needs managing) - its that not everyone is comfortable with the topic
Nobody reasonable actually wants to engage with trolls. I don’t engage exclusively/primarily on the topic with @Mith, @Sha, and @M.A.R. because they’re from the area, but because I have reasonable and meaningful conversations and discussions with them.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael and they're free to
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I usually try to reason even with those who might first appear unreasonable.
Of course it might fail, but I try.
@ShadowWizard I don’t care to do that when it’s clear I’m wasting my time and effort.
11:29 AM
@AndreascondemnsIsrael sure, and fair.
urgh, got to get back to that failures report.
!!/coffee
@Journeyman bring Smokey here as well. :D
I'm not a troll just because you disagree with me
@AndreascondemnsIsrael Your definition of reasonable/meaningful conversation unfortunately doesn't seem to be able to include talking with viewpoint that are very different fromy ours
@ShadowWizard I would like to point out that endorsing an action is different than calling people to do it
@Starship here the line is thinner, for good or bad, and we have to accept it. Believe me, I was also there, and was even chat banned once.
(not by endorse killing, but still... I wasn't nice.)
@Starship You use arguments that are absurd and out of reason. I cannot engage with that. You contradict yourself on multiple occasions, to the point I cannot trust you are being honest.
May I ask how we are suppossed to talk about a war, which involves killing, without endorsing killing, unless we are all pacifists.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael Examples.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael I still think those are due to lack of info, and not done on purpose.
@Starship problem is that it's not classic war we're talking about, or more accurate we focus sometimes on the less classic parts, which are harder to tell/accept in a reasonable manner.
One can say "children are being killed" when it's a known fact. But children should not be killed in war, that is just common sense. Who are those children and who they will become in the future is not relevant.
11:38 AM
You seem to think none of these children are armed attackers. That's false.
One might say 'it is sad, but can't be prevented' - that's harsh but legit to say.
@Starship explosive diaper?
If the IDF sent 17 years into Gaza and trained them in the army would they be immune suddently
@Starship that makes little sense, what do you mean?
@ShadowWizard If the IDF lower recruitment age to 17 could those 17 years old, if sent into gaza, now be considered civilians? no
I'm kicking starship again
The only terrorism 2 year olds are doing are in their diapers, and its bio warfare.
 
3 hours later…
2:23 PM
I just stumbled upon this group one block down from my hotel just now:
They were escorted by a police car.
 
1 hour later…
3:32 PM
@Starship still doesn't make sense. First, the age is now 18, what difference would it make to be 17? Second, they are indeed sent to Gaza, and Lebanon, and fight there. Third, by the very definition, they are not civilians, they are soldiers. I don't understand what you try to say.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael isn't any mass protest (i.e. more than X people) escorted by police to keep it organized?
@ShadowWizard Don't think so. There were only a few hundred people in this one. There have been conflicts between pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters before, but only once or twice did it get violent, I think, and we're talking 5-10 injured, not at a bigger scale. Some pro-Israeli protesters attacked the pro-Palestinian ones sometime last year. There have been other protests that caused riots, such as the Eritrean protests in Bergen.
Those Eritrean ones got rather violent, so the police had to step in with their anti-riot equipment. It was condemned quite extensibly, if I remember correctly.
3:48 PM
@ShadowWizard Actually, eh, the police is usually present at any large protest, but they tend to judge depending on the chance of it to get out of hand, or getting attacked. The local community marching in the evening with candles for their hospitals not to be shut down, is much less at risk of requiring police intervention than a protest about war. Although, protests for support to Ukraine usually isn't divisive.
I was honestly kinda surprised, bordering at shock, when I got down to downtown of Trondheim one day and saw armoured anti-riot police cars. I didn't even think we had those.
So I walked up and asked what it was all about, and the officers said there was gonna be some protest about a conflict somewhere in the world. Can't remember which one.
 
2 hours later…
5:29 PM
@AndreascondemnsIsrael well yeah, that does make sense.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael maybe they're fake. ;)
@AndreascondemnsIsrael likely Israel, this tend to bring the worst in people, on both sides...
@ShadowWizard Don't think it was.
@ShadowWizard Nope.
@AndreascondemnsIsrael Surprise! ;)
 
2 hours later…
7:59 PM
Who invited me to join this room?
Messages of yours were moved here by JMG, which invites you to the room implicitly.
Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying!
@Spevacus yeah, another small but useful feature of the chat.
and the audit messages clearly show who moved, so you know who's responsible and can ask them the reason for moving.

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