8:54 AM
Here is better to not clutter the tavern with the discussion
Yeah, I figured moving would be a li'l better.
I agree with the aims of your proposal, but I don't think SE's landscape supports it reaching those aims
I guess the first and fundamental question becomes, then... the demographics of SE don't line up with the ones our CoC rightfully seeks to build. Which do we compromise on?
We can either elect to discard components of the system in order to build a culture that better fits the CoC, or we can sacrifice the aim of inclusivity to preserve the system's general form.
This is a challenge faced by most tech companies
for how it plays out when you really push the issue, look no further then wikipedia right now
8:56 AM
It'll be worse here, even, I think, because the conclusion's foregone. Stack can't try to push the CoC as written.
If what you're saying's true (and I think it probably is)... it costs too much $ in community
I mean, i've seen it first hand
Do tell!
post anything with a feminist sentiment on SO meta and watch the fireworks
Yvette can tell you all about that
You quickly realize a large part of the established community leans socially conservative
Yeah that doesn't shock me, sadly, given my... [waves hand] experiences
If you look through it, anything to do with social issues gets a downvote bomb, and if you look through the comments
well, don't look through the comments. It's a bit like reddit
9:00 AM
Yeah. So the question becomes... where's the path towards inclusivity?
I can tell you right now if you asked this question at the SO mod election, first of all the question wouldn't be included based on the question selection thread, but if it were, people would all either dance around the issue or torpedo their chances & take a lot of abuse
I do think we can't really have people with views directly contradicting the CoC as mods
they have too much discretion for that
I think like, this is why I stand behind the proposal even through your objections. People deserve to see that their moderators hold these opinions. I think that's gonna be the real pending breaking point for the Stack. As long as we can continue pretending candidates aren't bigoted (because we never ask them if they are), we'll never have to deal with the reality that a lot of users are, too. And that, free and fair elections can't secure a safe environment.
At least, not yet.
Fair enough, although that is a different objective then you stated in the post
I don't object to that
I'm hardly gonna win people over by saying, "the attempt to force Stack's hand about justice -- not equity -- in the election process is one known outcome" ;)
true that
this is why I usually don't disclose things about myself. Too many people suddenly start treating you differently. I don't like being reminded that a fair amount of people will have disdain for me based on unalterable characteristics
9:05 AM
I mean, Stack did a real, tangible harm to me, in that it contributed directly to me suppressing who I am for... years, probably.
Just because of, that, yeah. No one would tell me I'm Unwelcome, but... yeah, things change. I'm known as the angry t[slur] now, by a nontrivial number of people. Now I've just gotta live with that.
It's only because I'm exiting that I actually feel free to be up-front about it. But that's another topic.
its not just stack to be fair, the internet in general
one of the reasons why I'm paranoid about my real name not being on here
Yeah, same. I'm... really stringent, about my own infosec.
It's also true that enough people who disagree even civilly feels like an attack very much. One of the core issues of meta
I've been complaining about that on SO meta for a while, but it didn't take (not surprising)
I mean... maybe it's worth thinking about it as an attack. The system makes us be hostile.
on a side note that 60/30 figure in the USA shows the depth of the problem. If ~45% of people in the USA aren't comfortable using pronouns, imagine that breakdown in say poland or russia
And then extrapolate that to SO. It might well be that a third or more of the userbase finds the new CoC update to be unconscionable. Which harkens back to your point. I don't think they can afford actually going through with it.
And then it ends like on twitter, wikipedia, facebook and reddit. Notionally they have a strong CoC, but it gets enforced only very selectively and not generally
9:12 AM
Which means... altering the CoC is not for people like me.
Yeap. It's either very optimistic and aspirational or more marketing then reality
(Virtue signaling's a li'l loaded and thorny, to me, but I hear it a lot for people who just... complain about progress)
(But yeah, in essence it's aimed primarily at people who want to believe the CoC is followed and enforced. Which, hm.)
@Aza I concede that point
I'm tired.
reddit notionally has a very strong and unambigous code of conduct. Yet they let some incredibly reprehensive stuff stand
Thanks for the discussion anyways
I hope something good comes out of your proposal, even if it's only a bit of sunlight disinfectant
9:16 AM
Yeah, you, too
And, thanks. I hope so.
@Magisch And, hey, about this one -- if it would ever help to chat, even off-site, just let me know. I'm always open to talking. I don't know exactly what you mean, but I do know it can get lonely.
Thanks for the offer - I may take you up on that at some point
Any time, I mean it. :)