Tavern on the Meta

6:01 PM

What's meta?

6:32 PM

sigh, how can SE not see that they are just throwing more gas on the fire with this blog post? Even if the Loop really does meet everyone's needs, the way they are going about it is almost calculated to trigger loss aversion.

rene

We're out of the loop.

11

@Rubiksmoose I suggest you edit that question then. It is close to useless in its current form. I'm happy to delete vote it again in 6 to 8 days.

I am Monica

lol, of course this thing is on the blog

Tinkeringbell

@IamMonica Isn't it over the character limit for a post on SE? ;) It seems kinda long.

I am Monica

we post on blog -> you read the blog (or not) -> end of loop

2

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

Not quite. There are also the carefully curated comments.

I am Monica

6:47 PM

when they're enabled at all

mag

@Tinkeringbell where do you draw your perpetual optimism from

I want some of that

I am Monica

@mag ~*shakes a bottle*~ ... the pharmacy.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell Simple solution: split into two posts.

Tinkeringbell

@IamMonica Weird names you have for liquor stores ;)

I'm just... happy that we know some kind of roadmap now? Even though it's vague and I still have questions too, which I hope I'll get answers to :)

djsmiley2k - CoW

sounds like the perfect name to me :D

user58

6:49 PM

About 17,000 characters. About half of the character limit on a standard SE site.

I am Monica

@Tinkeringbell Some people call alcohol a depressant; I call it an accelerant. /lighter

djsmiley2k - CoW

@user58 CALLED I.

Tinkeringbell

@user58 shush ;P

rene

:8082251 so? you claim it is not a dupe and the problem is different from what is mentioned in the question, based on what you said in the chat transcript. Edit it then to make clear what is asked or at least that it matches with your and the other answers.

Rubiksmoose

@rene Sorry, misread that as you saying it was "my" question.

@rene I just did. What do you think?

Tinkeringbell

6:50 PM

@IamMonica I'm mostly using it as a desinfectant these days, mom has the flu.

mag

@Tinkeringbell I don't get that angle

they confirmed they're doubling down on the badness

Tinkeringbell

Can you define badness?

mag

the worst timeline doesn't beat uncertainty

moving away from community involvement

instead of fixing meta they're getting rid of it

Tinkeringbell

(btw, I still haven't read the entire blog post carefully, just speedread through it so I'd be up to date ;) )

mag

instead of listening they comitted to maintaining silence on monica's situation

djsmiley2k - CoW

6:52 PM

@JohnDvorak I demanded this!

mag

if this is what management thinks is needed to correct course then we need other management

Tinkeringbell

@mag Ehh. The feedback loop is kinda totally unrelated to Monica's situation, and it involves people that can't work on Monica's situation. I'd rather keep that one a separate issue.

2

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell It's highly amenable to a "we're not going to listen to our community in a meaningful way but we want to make it look like we are going to" interpretation.

djsmiley2k - CoW

@mag no no, they need different users.

Tinkeringbell

@mag I'm not sure about 'getting rid of it' either... It's going to change, be replaced perhaps... but 'getting rid of' sounds like you'd get nothing else in place, which I refuse to believe and is not the impression I get from a quick read through the blog post.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

6:54 PM

Oh, and we're going to have moderators that are more equal.

rene

@Rubiksmoose I might as well edit the duplicate list. The edit makes the question a bit more clear, thanks for that.

Tinkeringbell

@rockwalrus-stopharmingMonica Well, that's perhaps not a bad thing. Out of several big 'subjective' sites, each handles e.g. backup requirements in their own way. A more even approach there might mean less IPS vs TWP fights ;)

djsmiley2k - CoW

Allow me to translate some bits for you

" We have new leadership, amazing partners using our Stack Overflow for Teams product, and north of 100k new users signing up to the public Q&A each month (coders are everywhere!)."

mag

@Tinkeringbell Make no mistake, this is their response to the community rebellion

djsmiley2k - CoW

We don't care about non-coding sites, as we can't addvertise those jobs

mag

6:55 PM

And that response is "We'll just cancel the community then"

Rubiksmoose

@rene Yeah there's probably one on DMs around?

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2k-CoW If you don't mind, I'd like a chance to take it through my own translator first ;)

djsmiley2k - CoW

"We’ve observed that systems that used to work when we had 50,000 users don’t work as well now when we have 50 million coders asking questions and teaching others on our platform. "

we have too many users 'just hanging around' - that's annoying and costly - so we will fire the noisest ones into the sun.

"We are striving to:

create an experience that works for all users
show everyone how we think about serving the larger developer and technical community
be clear about the “why” behind our decisions"

Explaining stuff on meta doesn't work, because you nasty people tell us we are wrong.

2

"A month ago we formed cross-functional teams of Stackers (employees of Stack Overflow) to create strategies to start addressing some of these concerns. It’s been inspiring to see people from our Community Management team work hand in hand with folks from Engineering, Sales, and Marketing to come up with solutions for our community’s most pressing concerns."

I didn't even know Dave from Coding 101 worked here!

etc.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

I'm ok with meta going away, but if they think that's going to make me stop treating the rest of SE as read only until they stop harming Monica, they're dead wrong.

PM 2Ring

"We’ll hand-select folks of diverse backgrounds who are excited to chat with us regularly about everything from new ideas to features, to how we communicate with the broader Stack Overflow community." Seriously? Listening to a bunch of people you hand-select isn't going to give you unbiased community feedback!

13

user168476

6:58 PM

I feel like this is their way of politely showing a lot of us the door.

2

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2k-CoW Okay, I did reach that part. I don't think it's about firing the noisiest users into the sun... I thought that referred to the part on community debt that came after: both with the communication, but also referring to the moderator tools and the closed questiosn bit.

djsmiley2k - CoW

> Overall, both anonymous and registered users are highly satisfied with Stack Overflow and tell us that their favorite things about our community include finding solutions to their problems, vast access to information, and the knowledgeable people who participate.

So, not actually answering questions then.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

Nothing could be better than marketing people solving all our problems. What could possibly go wrong?

2

user168476

Also, I find it interesting that once again we are apparently just caring about SO and tossing the rest of the network under the bus.

2

Rubiksmoose

@PM2Ring Counterpoint: it is possible to pick a representative sample of a community. It's hard, but possible. Whether they will put in the work to make sure though...

user168476

6:59 PM

Because you know, that's awesome.

user168476

@Rubiksmoose how can they? They don't have the demographic info to even begin to make good choices there

djsmiley2k - CoW

pick a community person who's a coder

Tinkeringbell

@Ash Yeah, that one is a bit disappointing for me too... I'm also not even sure if by Meta they thus mean MSO, MSE, or IPS.meta!

Rubiksmoose

@Ash Yeah that was one of the huge things that leapt out at me too. Slapped me in the face more like it.

djsmiley2k - CoW

wonder why they only care about coding community. xD

John Dvorak

7:00 PM

@rockwalrus-stopharmingMonica `media.giphy.com/media/jUnI8iVNyyURq/giphy.gif

Tinkeringbell

I guess most of this is still... I'll see it when it's in action, then decide what I think about it... for me.

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Tinkeringbell yup

Rubiksmoose

@Ash I mean, they could request it via applications and such. I'm not saying that it is easy, or reasonable, just that it is theoretically within the realm of possibility.

djsmiley2k - CoW

but... I'm not holding my breath

user168476

It frustrates me that for years I sold the network to people I know as this awesome space for anyone to ask about dang near anything and now it's like okay yep they don't actually want to be that, so don't bother.

2

Tinkeringbell

7:00 PM

@djsmiley2k-CoW Because there's no 50 million people on IPS asking CMs to interact with them ;)

user168476

@Rubiksmoose yeah, it's theoretically possible but likely more work than they would do

Stevoisiak supports Monica

SE have said they believe meta has 5 main uses: Self-governance discussions, Support, Bug Reports, User Feedback, and Announcements

Four of these five are planned for migration. The only use left for meta would be self-governance discussions. While not fully elaborated on, presumably it would partially be addressed by the new moderator advisory team.

Catija

Multiline message won't allow formatting.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@Catija Thanks

Catija

There's a lot of "support" that's not "customer support"... things like "How do I format stuff in chat". :P

djsmiley2k - CoW

7:02 PM

@Tinkeringbell :D

Rubiksmoose

@Ash That certainly remains to be seen and I wouldn't be shocked at all if it happens as you say. My only point was that it is possible to hand select a representative group.

rene

@Rubiksmoose yep, edited the dupe list with them.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

My interpretation on meta being sunset.

Tinkeringbell

@Catija Oh, well, you can use asterisks to make stuff bold and cursive, like *so* ;)

djsmiley2k - CoW

> Themes that you said frustrated you over the past few months were:

an unwelcoming community
site design (cluttered pages, confusing navigation across the Stack Exchange network, etc.)
artifact quality (outdated answers, poorly framed questions, etc.)
barriers to participation

sorry wut

who'd you get that off.

Tinkeringbell

7:03 PM

` < putting a word between these two will result in code formatting: tahdah!

Catija

@djsmiley2k-CoW The site satisfaction survey. It's been shown to logged in and anonymous users over the past couple of months.

(On SO)

Rubiksmoose

One thing to note as well, if we're talking about "unbiased community feedback" is that MSE has never been that either. MSE has never been representative of the larger network of users and never will be.

2

PM 2Ring

@Rubiksmoose Well, yes. But the phrase "hand-picked" strongly implies "people who think & feel the way we approve of" not a proper random or representative sample of the community.

2

mag

dont really need a survey to know the company has not been doing an adequate job in the past say 3 years

PM 2Ring

"MSE has never been representative of the larger network of users and never will be." Ok, that's a valid point.

mag

7:06 PM

when you upset and denigrate people, they might become even more unwelcoming

Rubiksmoose

@PM2Ring Eh, I don't read that as the intended interpretation there, but it might well be the effect. I don't know any more than y'all do.

user168476

@Rubiksmoose yeah, Meta is its own problem, but going to a more closed model doesn't fix that.

Rubiksmoose

@Ash I mean, it could if done correctly.

But that's a big "if" there.

fbueckert

I think a lot of these concerns could be alleviated if it was far more transparent.

user168476

I'm not sure it can, but then again the only model I have for this is a consultation model that I know doesn't work at a large scale :/

Stevoisiak supports Monica

7:08 PM

@PM2Ring "Hand picked" may partially be a precaution against moderator leaks, such as the one seen last week

user58

Meta, while it does have its own community, is still technically open to everyone. Anyone can become part of the core group.

user168476

@fbueckert it would be nice, but I don't think it's gonna be :(

fbueckert

If members of the user group don't have their hands tied with an NDA, so they can report on discussions without fear of repercussions.

mag

or rather, when people get yelled at for making nasty comments while most of them don't, they might stop leaving comments

which is a whole bunch more unwelcoming then the previous state

user168476

@user58 yeah, it's technically open.

user58

7:09 PM

Now, the environment isn't always conducive to that, and that's an issue, but moving to even more closed platform... isn't going to make it easier for more diverse people to join, because it'll be harder for everyone to join.

3

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's been demonstrated repeatedly over the last 2 months that moderator discussions can't be trusted as confidential.

user58

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica Unfortunately.

Rubiksmoose

@Ash It sounds like you know more about this than I. I should be clear, I mean I assume that there is a way to make a closed-group model for feedback work here. It makes sense to me, but then again that doesn't mean I'm right.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Wait, why is my name showing up as Supports Monica in chat again?

I specifically set my parent user to Arqade.

user58

This is chat.Meta, you can't have any other parent than Meta.SE.

Tinkeringbell

7:11 PM

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica That only works on chat.se, your on chat.meta.se now ;)

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Strange, in the sidebar my name still shows as Stevoisiak for me

user168476

@Rubiksmoose at this scale, it's not likely to be practical for them to pursue, or likely. :( it's hard, when things are this big, to make them open and fair, but this feels like we are heading more into less open and consultative and more closed and towards what they want to the potential detriment of anything the community knows fits itself.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

shrugs chat is weird

Tinkeringbell

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica Type three/four messages... I think it'll expand then.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

one

two

three

Huh.

Tinkeringbell

7:13 PM

There you are :)

Rubiksmoose

@Ash But has Meta ever worked on this scale either? To me it looks like one model has failed and they're trying something new. I like being a part of things as much as anyone else, but that seems reasonable to try. I've read many legitimate critiques of MSE as a system for feedback and it's certainly seriously flawed.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Suppose there's no way to have a different username between Meta SE and Meta SE Chat?

user168476

@Rubiksmoose oh, Meta is super flawed! It's a terrible model, and needs to be dealt with. I'm just not loving this hand selected group where I suspect a lot of the time most of us aren't ever going to hear anything except this is what you get, be happy.

4

Kevin B

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica two accounts

it's easier than ever to earn the minimum rep

user168476

It really comes down to oh hey, this is a business, working more like a business than we ever thought it would, and letting go of that is hard.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

7:16 PM

Well, I suppose my support tag will have to stay in chat then.

Rubiksmoose

@Ash Yeah :-/

But if they do this right and if it is effective, we might have a path forward to steering this ship back in the right direction, right?

user168476

Possibly. But it's really hard to even have room to trust that right now. So much of their core model is built on unfriendly concepts.

fbueckert

@Ash To be fair, that's more or less what we've been getting for the last year and change.

Rubiksmoose

@Ash No arguments there.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

This migration was likely planned for a long time. But I can't help but wonder to what extent recent events pushed this up the priority list

user168476

7:22 PM

@fbueckert well yes, but it doesn't mean they had to double down on it :p

Bryan Krause

I'm not much of a participant on the main meta, but I can't quite see how it's a useful place to gather feedback with the tone it's had for awhile

And simple majority rule is often a poor way to make decisions

user168476

I have been reading a lot lately about how different models of communication and listening to the needs of local realities can shape these sorts of things, so that's been informing a lot of my thoughts lately about how broken this whole model is. I can see how they're thinking this will help, but I suspect it's gonna keep getting worse before it gets better

Stevoisiak supports Monica

I don't disagree with the idea of moving bug reports off of meta.

fbueckert

@Ash I totally agree! :P But it doesn't seem like community feedback is really accepted now.

It's been a downward spiral of, "You guys are mean! So we're not listening to you!" since the Welcome Wagon.

Rubiksmoose

@BryanKrause Well it's not a useful place to collect feedback currently. At least not feedback that is supposed to represent the whole community. That certainly doesn't mean there's nothing to learn or nothing of value here, but it is clear that various factors (size, attitudes of company towards meta and vice versa, trust, Q&A format itself) is hampering MSE greatly.

user168476

7:25 PM

@fbueckert there has been good at the core of it, mostly, but the implementation has been very alienating. It isn't a good community building praxis in a lot of ways. I dont know what's better. I'm increasingly convinced that there isn't a better, for SE in its current incarnation.

I am Monica

I can only hope that The Loop™ works as well as Documentation™.

7

user168476

There was a great plan, to help all people with all things, but...the very model of help wasn't scaled to the local realities, there was a lot of well, just make it work.

fbueckert

@Ash I agree there's been a ton of good intent. The execution, however, has been a nightmare from the very beginning.

user168476

emphatic nod

Bryan Krause

@Rubiksmoose Yes, and yet a lot of the content I've seen on meta lately has been "why aren't you asking us/sharing with us?" and now "why are you silencing us" and I think the answers are kind of just staring everyone right in the face while they look the other way

I am Monica

7:28 PM

I love that they asked about age, race, and gender. Would you like to know my income bracket as well; so, you can more confidently ignore my opinion?

Bryan Krause

There's a lot that SE needs to do better and correct but I don't see a lot of self-reckoning here that maybe a certain approach to discourse is more harmful than helpful in terms of getting the type of attention that is useful

3

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

There were more demographic questions than questions about SE.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@BryanKrause It's why I've tried to be very selective about what I post on Meta recently. I only post if I think I can add to a conversation

Rubiksmoose

Is it just a US thing? We have to answer age, race, sex on like everything. At least in my experience.

Bryan Krause

(before ya'll give me any more stars I should make clear I'm criticizing the meta community and not SE ;) )

fbueckert

7:31 PM

Reading between the lines, it feels more like there's a mandate from on high, and it's left to the CMs to carry it out.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@BryanKrause I starred because I agree :P

Kevin B

for age, that's... more of an internet thing

Helmar

Well that survey is pretty meaningless.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

I've kept thinking back to how some employees felt like "meta was terrifying"

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose It's a US thing, that's getting more popular in other parts of the Western world too.

Kevin B

7:32 PM

out of the 8 questions, how many weren't about age/gender/race

Stevoisiak supports Monica

And honestly? Right now I kind of agree with them

If I were an SE employee right now, I'd find meta terrifying

Bryan Krause

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica I think there's a lot of good content here, but probably a lot of people not being as thoughtful as you about what they add, and a lot of echo chamber anger. A lot of the anger is justified, it just doesn't seem like the right release for it here

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica SE is terrifying for a lot of users. The correct answer is to fix your product, not stop dogfooding.

Tinkeringbell

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica It is. And I think a part of that is because people on Meta have totally different expectations of Meta than what it currently is/can do wrt interactions with SE. In that way, the blog post is a way of setting better expectations, I guess.

Bryan Krause

@rockwalrus-stopharmingMonica If anyone knew how to fix it it would be fixed already

Have the folks in here done much survey design before?

Rubiksmoose

7:35 PM

@Tinkeringbell huh, well that explains at least part of the (to me) weirdly disproptionate reaction to those questions. I can see how to those that don't get asked that constantly it would seem very intrusive and unnecessary.

Kevin B

I haven't not, i actively avoid them.

Bryan Krause

That survey is super open ended. I wouldn't suggest emphasizing the question count so much. It's basically a question and some demographics

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's really 3 questions. "What are your feelings about SE?" "What do you like about SE?" "What do you dislike about SE?"

Rubiksmoose

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica heck MSE is terrifying for normal users too... I'm a moderator and I still lurked here for years until I actually gathered up the nerve to post.

Kevin B

It always feels like the questions/results are purposely twisted toward a particular outcome.

Tinkeringbell

7:37 PM

@Rubiksmoose It's also... If I see them, I'm like 'nope, if you don't take my opinion without knowing who I am, you're not getting it while knowing who I am so you can have your diversity brownie points'... I personally kinda dislike those. It's the same thing with e.g. American job posts, that ask you to disclose any favourable diversity points.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

@BryanKrause It's possible that SE is fatally flawed, like one of those tiny Life configurations that explode into something huge but eventually die out completely.

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell Makes sense. And I'm sure to have a different view on that given I'm white and male in a WASPy area in a male-dominated field so I never feel like that.

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose WASP?

Rubiksmoose

White Anglo Saxon Protestant.

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

@Tinkeringbell The American law on those questions is weird. They're not allowed to look at those answers while doing hiring, except for the veteran status one. It's still a good idea for them to ask in order to make sure their process isn't biased and for more obscure legal reasons.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

7:39 PM

I never take for granted that I grew up in a very privileged environment

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose Ah...

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica I mean, me neither... but I also don't want to be treated differently because people perceive me as less privileged, I'm not. I've been there, and it set me back about a year in coding skills.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

For years, I never appreciated how lucky I was to graduate from college without student debt

Tinkeringbell

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica Ah yes. That's a bit easier to do when Dutch ;)

Bryan Krause

@rockwalrus-stopharmingMonica Could be. I continue to find it so much more useful than the other 99.99% of the interwebs that I think the reports of its death have been greatly exaggerated.

2

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It wasn't until a group discussion when we were asked how many of us had loans, I realized how privileged I was

Bryan Krause

7:41 PM

And for every person that says they got an unfriendly response when asking a question here, I sure do happen to stumble on a lot of well-asked and well-answered questions when I have questions of my own

So much so that I've yet to even ask a question on SO

Tinkeringbell

@BryanKrause How old are those? ;)

Stevoisiak supports Monica

It's not that there isn't an unfriendliness problem.

But, man, the way this whole thing has been handled

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

Honestly I always perceived SO as more "obsessed with unexpected things" than "unfriendly", but I'm well aware that most people perceive people in the first category as being in the second.

Bryan Krause

@Tinkeringbell Older for older tech, newer for newer tech :) I mean, it shouldn't be that surprising that a lot of the best Q&A are a few years old when the languages involved haven't changed

Stevoisiak supports Monica

You can't tell me you've never seen posts like "You could just google this"

Or "Do some basic research next time"

Bryan Krause

7:45 PM

I guess on the smaller sites that I frequent more as a SE user (mostly scientific stacks) rather than a Googler, there are a lot of people that we turn away with exactly those "unfriendly" greetings

Rubiksmoose

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica those posts are often the ones that come up first when I'm googling them ;)

Bryan Krause

But it's for their benefit, too

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

SO inherited a lot of baggage from bug tracking systems, and there's a reason why most companies don't make their bug tracking systems transparent to their users.

Bryan Krause

If you come ask on Biology.SE for your ABCD question, I'm sorry, that's not what we are here for, and yes, you are going to get asked to do more research first.

Tinkeringbell

@BryanKrause I mean... IPS once scared away a CM when asking for backup... so it's hard to post almost anywhere...

(or at least, each site has their own problems)

Bryan Krause

7:46 PM

@Tinkeringbell I'm more afraid of IPS than MSE

2

Stevoisiak supports Monica

The amount of times I've googled something, and there's a comment saying "Why didn't you just google it"

Rubiksmoose

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica The worst.

Tinkeringbell

@BryanKrause It's a tough site to mod, but the community there is slowly getting the hang of it. I'd like MSE to be more like IPS, especially when it comes to 'what's not an answer'.

Bryan Krause

@Tinkeringbell IPS probably only works because ya'll moderate it with a heavy hand. Maybe a similar model would work for Meta but it would be a lot easier to start with that from the beginning rather than impose it after the fact

Tinkeringbell

@BryanKrause Yes, very true. It's pretty hard to get people used to heavy moderation if they're already used to more freedom. See all the recent posts about deleted things.

Helmar

7:49 PM

@BryanKrause Isn't everyone? :D

Tinkeringbell

I think one of the things the post about instating moderators on MSE mentioned was something similar?

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

>
Hey All - thanks for the feedback here we're reading through all of it. The demographic questions should not have been mandatory, the survey has been updated. Appreciate you pointing that out. – Sara Chipps♦ 2 mins ago

Tinkeringbell

> In a dynamic where we essentially hold all of the cards and power, we need to give folks as much latitude as possible in order to create a field that's as level as possible. That means, we've gotta let the truth hurt, essentially, even when it's incredibly inconvenient. HOWEVER, if we can't find a trace of good faith in correspondence or it has become personal, it needs to be removed to keep the bar to entry in line with what we can take.

Bryan Krause

@Tinkeringbell Where's that from?

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@rockwalrus-stopharmingMonica Can you link that comment?

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

7:51 PM

Hey All - thanks for the feedback here we're reading through all of it. The demographic questions should not have been mandatory, the survey has been updated. Appreciate you pointing that out. — Sara Chipps ♦ 4 mins ago

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Thanks

...I really don't want to see what the replies to that comment will be

Tinkeringbell

@BryanKrause Moderator appointment post: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/318630/…

mag

back then getting MSE mods looked like they were trying to turn a new leaf and listen

Tinkeringbell

They do listen?

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@Tinkeringbell I think they meant SE, not the mods

Tinkeringbell

7:54 PM

Though we haven't done as much of those languising tag synonyms as that post suggests.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

How has the traffic been on SO the past two months? Has there been any noticable change?

Rubiksmoose

@mag Well to many people in the mod bubble as well. Though probably not many people outside the MSE bubble. Though I don't think many would agree with "evil" at this point.

Kevin B

there has been an increase

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@mag I hesitate to call SE "evil". I don't think we'd be allowed to have this chat on their platform if they were.

Whoops, I misread. You said "people not in the mod bubble" see it that way

Bryan Krause

@mag People have been screaming at them on meta for awhile now that they need to hire someone who knows how to communicate with the community aka PR people. Not saying they've done that but... see how it's kind of hard to do what everyone wants?

I am Monica

7:57 PM

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica a certain amount of rat feces in canned food is legal and expected.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@IamMonica Uh

Bryan Krause

@IamMonica Are we the rat feces in this analogy?

Rubiksmoose

@mag "the most principled ones of those resigned over recent events" I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this statement implies that those of us that did stay are not among the "most principled ones" which... is kind of not true?

Stevoisiak supports Monica

To me, "evil" implies bad intent

Tinkeringbell

@mag Okay... I understand, but at this point it's probably helpful to sit back and wait awhile, instead of ... this. Because that's exactly one of the things that makes it so hard for CMs to come forward.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

7:59 PM

As much as it may seem otherwise, I genuinely don't assume bad intent here.

Rubiksmoose

@mag I figured you didn't mean it (and said as much), but just letting you know that you might want to phrase it better in the future. Many people that I respect have resigned, but there are plenty of highly principled and respected people still clinging to their diamonds and trying/hoping that they can help make things better.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

(Don't interpret that as agreement with what they've done. My username should make my stance on that clear)

But remember that every decision made has been made by a real person

Feeds

Podcast: TFW You Accidentally Delete Your Database

Ben Popper on November 25, 2019

It’s Thanksgiving in the United States this week, so we’re releasing the podcast a day early. This week we skipped the banter sessions so we could spend more time on the interview with Juan Pablo Buriticá and Brian Brennan from Splice.

Brian shares a delightful tale of the time one of his co-workers accidentally deleted the company’s database, and how they recovered it through binary transaction logs. No better way to learn than a trial by fire.

Juan explains why typing is taking over frontend development. First off, we discovered unit testing, and typecasting can make that a lot less painful. …

I am Monica

I'm just saying that they still stand to make money by ignoring our little civil protests in chat or meta or whatever. They let us have our storm in a teacup and know that it won't amount to much. They could be evil and still let us complain.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@mag Never forget Hanlon's razor.

Kevin B

8:01 PM

"one of his co-workers"

Tinkeringbell

@mag I'm not saying you can't be cynical. But calling the company evil, saying you have zero reason... it doesn't make for a situation in which someone will feel comfortable talking to you now :/

Stevoisiak supports Monica

...actually, was that last line too mean?

Genuinely asking, I don't mean for that to come off that way

Bryan Krause

@mag Probably in part because every attempt they make is met by a roar from the lions den

Tinkeringbell

@mag Okay, if it's about Monica... yeah, they can't. But if you'd like to talk about the feedback loops, people might...

Bryan Krause

SE could announce that they've brought us donuts and meta would scream THEY MUST BE POISONED

George Stocker

8:03 PM

Last one out, turn out the lights when you leave.

I am Monica

@BryanKrause There's no screaming. It's a quiet sigh behind a cup of coffee. "Plain cake? Who does that?"

Bryan Krause

@IamMonica Maybe we read a different meta

Tinkeringbell

@GeorgeStocker Meh. I'm still going for switching to more energy efficient LED lights.

I am Monica

I rather like plain cake. It's the classic coffee donut.

Bryan Krause

I just had some of the lightest wheat toast I have ever had over the weekend...

Helmar

8:04 PM

@Tinkeringbell Nothing is more energy efficient than the light that isn't on at all ;)

Bryan Krause

I really wish I had asked how it was made. It had so much air in it, it was absolutely delightful as a coffee accompaniment

Tinkeringbell

@mag Breaking stuff up so that Monica has nothing to hypothetically return to is even worse.

If y'all want her back, and she wants to come back... there must be something left to come back to.

Rubiksmoose

Yikes, really amping up the melodrama with that most recent question title eh MSE?

Tinkeringbell

@mag Okay, well... then we're probably done talking here.

mag

No

Tinkeringbell

8:07 PM

@Rubiksmoose How's that seeking input/discussion? :/

fbueckert

@Tinkeringbell That bridge is broken. That's not going to happen anymore.

Tinkeringbell

@fbueckert I haven't read Monica say she doesn't want to, and she did want to at first...

Where's the update that says so?

mag

at this point monica's conditions for dropping the lawsuit might include something SE can't do and still save face

Tinkeringbell

@mag Yeah, you warned me ;)

fbueckert

@Tinkeringbell Once you get legal involved, you've burned any sort of goodwill.

I am Monica

8:09 PM

The stars. Too many stars...

Bryan Krause

@Tinkeringbell Whether she intended it or not, I'm pretty sure the first time she even mentioned a lawyer it was dead.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Please, let's not assume the intentions of people who aren't currently here

2

Tinkeringbell

^ Yeah, sorry.. wrong question.

user58

*quiet coughing*

might I suggest that this conversation come to a discreet end

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell I'd upvote that question ;)

Monica Cellio

8:10 PM

@Tinkeringbell there's plenty to come back to beyond MSE, but they've shown zero interest in setting things right. They like to say "can't because lawyers", but that was after five weeks of them refusing to talk with me at all. Don't believe their spin on that.

18

mag

Jesus H. Christ I went overboard. Someone kick me from the room, I have it coming

Monica Cellio

I should say there's plenty to come back to now, but if they drag this out for years I fear there won't be. Or even months. It seems like they're ignoring every opportunity to walk down the path of repair, and it's harming the communities as well as individuals.

Tinkeringbell

:8082806 Oof. To be fair, I forgot to properly pause my game yesterday when I went for a shower, and I spent 4 days 'in bed/sleeping' :/

mag

I should air my unproductive anger into notepad and then not post it

Tinkeringbell

@mag :) Sounds good to me!

Monica Cellio

8:16 PM

@mag they had many, many opportunities to save face. They could still, though it might strain credibility more than it would have two months ago. But I'm not unwilling, if they do the right things. Which unfortunately I can't really talk about, but they're obvious.

I am Monica

You're a corporate casualty, Monica; It'll never end. There's no upside for them to re-engage.

Tinkeringbell

@MonicaCellio At this point, I'm not sure who or what to believe, so I'm just trying to keep things civil here.

M.A.R.

Y'know, part of me is happy things aren't back to normal and part of me is.

@mag I uh erm is this not Notepad and did you people hear the things I said about that and oh crap

Helmar

8:34 PM

Tbh, I don't think in any other country the idea of lawyer involvement would've even come up.

I am Monica

@Helmar I could swear I remember it being pretty common in England to take someone to court over defamatory public statements. I don't recall for sure, though.

Jenayah

Hi there. Could anyone on a computer edit meta.stackexchange.com/posts/339079/revisions to include the emphasis please? When I edit from mobile, whether from mobile or desktop view, it breaks the formatting someone else edited in :/

Thanks in advance, sorry to be a bother 😅

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@Jenayah Done

Jenayah

You rock, thanks :)

Stevoisiak supports Monica

You can't put the bold marks before the numbered item (in this case, 9)

That's what was breaking it

Jenayah

8:38 PM

Today I learned!

Tip noted :)

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Glad to help!

Rob

@Jenayah Done.

NullUserException อ_อ

is MSE broken for anyone else?

Tinkeringbell

Nope

NullUserException อ_อ

getting the "Oops! Something Bad Happened!" message on almost every question

Kevin B

8:53 PM

lol

Reinstate Monica

Getting the message on just the latest 3 questions

Tinkeringbell

Hmm. wait.

Kevin B

all of them

Tinkeringbell

I get on the last question, but not anything else. Might be because those are cached somewhere?

user245382

it has begun. They're shutting it down!

Kevin B

8:53 PM

works fine if you aren't logged in

NullUserException อ_อ

first thing I tried was Incognito

Tinkeringbell

@KevinB Nah, my incognito is throwing errors sporadically too

NullUserException อ_อ

still borked for me

Helmar

@IamMonica For insults sure. People sue about plain insults all the time. About an article in an obscure policy subsection of a "news website". The gofundme has more views than the article. That suit is going nowhere.

Rob

@NullUserExceptionอ_อ The main questions page is OK, but all the links from it are out.

NullUserException อ_อ

8:56 PM

I can see the questions, just can't get to any of them

I am Monica

@Helmar Litigation is not my forte but I don't expect it'll make much headway either.

Rob

Nick touched.

twitter.com/Nick_Craver/status/1199005094290886657?s=20

Machavity

Is this question producing a 500 error for anyone else?

glances at flames Nevermind. This is fine. Carry on. sips water

I am Monica

all sorts of questions are broken like that right now

maybe someone finally drove the blade of inclusivity through meta's heart

M.A.R.

And maybe fix is coming in ten.

Think about nice things . . . Butterflies, @rene

Machavity

9:06 PM

@M.A.R. Does rene dream of blurry sheep?

M.A.R.

Sheep eat flowers, I hope not

user102937

Meta looks OK now.

Helmar

Meta hasn't looked okay for months :D

Rob

And Now, Back to Our Regularly Scheduled Programming.

Tinkeringbell

nf << network_follower.init()

Though I admit I'm usually a horrible programmer and use .new()

Machavity

9:20 PM

@Tinkeringbell Don't go to Stack Overflow then. I've heard they're all mad over there.

Tinkeringbell

@Machavity I don't think anyone on SO uses Magik, so no one could even tell me I'm horrible :P

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell All the magic users are on RPG.SE not SO ;)

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose Yeah well all I know about RPGs is that they ruin marriages and what's in memes ;) but that's a story for a different day.

Night all!

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell hahaha. oh dear.

@Tinkeringbell Night!

Rob

10:04 PM

@NullUserExceptionอ_อ Cause of the outage, coincidentally it was an unforeseen null.

user58

10:29 PM

@Sonic ...sssshhhh

NullUserException อ_อ

@Rob Nice

user58

I'm feeling like moderators are seriously becoming victims of scope creep.

3

The description of a diamond moderator position is that they are responsible for moderation work on their site, such as handling flags. That's basically all they're officially required to do as part of their position.

But... in addition to that, moderators also end up moderating chat, become a go-between for their community and the company, help guide each other, and now are apparently supposed to form some sort of "council".

George Stocker

@user58 all while not running afoul of NY labor laws.

3

user58

The "moderator" position seems to have become "non-staff member we can give lots of responsibilities" in the eyes of the company.

Now... that's not necessarily a problem. But you cannot market a position as "handle flags, it's simple" and then say "oh, and by the way, here are a dozen other things you're responsible for that we didn't tell you about" afterwards.

...I am very very slightly tempted to request my diamond back just so that I'll be in more of a position to complain about stuff like this. But I won't.

Raedwald

10:48 PM

@user58 In my career, whenever I've heard a manager talk about the responsibilities of a role, or extra responsibilities, I always ask (myself, usually), "yes, but what powers come with those responsibilities". It is always a mistake to have much of one without much off the other. Go ask Superman.

user58

The powers that mods have are limited to powers related to moderation. Those powers have absolutely nothing to do with their position between the community and the company.

mag

Mind, mods can't function as a bridge between community and company very effectively

they're community elected, now in all cases. They don't represent the company at all

the january elections will see a swath of new mods who seriously hate the company's guts and will only do it out of love for their communities. I don't see anyone with any other messaging in their candidature winning a seat

user58

(Unless, of course, there have been massive tooling changes since I stepped down, which.... I doubt.)

mag

in particular the TWP election will probably be an exercise in who can slag off SE in the most vicious way without getting disqualified. It's not really a situation that has a win state, because just not holding elections also won't work

I feel for the CMs who have to try and square the circle there, it's a really messy situation with no visible solution, and a whole lot of re-hashing will be done either way.

ArtOfCode

@user58 hahahahahahahahahahahaha

user58

11:00 PM

....yeah. That's what I thought. ;)

Feeds

The astro-ph.SR arXiv servers are simultaneously being overwhelmed by electronic requests and actual electricity.

Journeyman Geek

11:18 PM

@mag that's why we have CMs. But ehhhh

Stevoisiak supports Monica

@mag When is TWP’s election?

George Stocker

@user58 this is one of those moments where I’d love to be a fly on the teacher’s lounge wall. If they aren’t pissed about this I’d be surprised. Not even the announcement, but it very clearly was not done with feedback from moderators

Journeyman Geek

Though. With SOs track record.... On anything other than QA.... I'm not certain a new platform is something that could ever be finished

ArtOfCode

@GeorgeStocker oh, don't worry, they are

Journeyman Geek

... damn it autocucumber

rockwalrus-stop harming Monica

11:27 PM

My cell phone has started to autocorrect to "Attack Exchange". I don't even know if it's wrong.

Bryan Krause

11:56 PM

@user58 That would be the power that comes along with it ;)

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