@apaul so writing that was a form of self-immolation for you then? Or... catharsis.

@Shog9 did you note the timeline?

The sequence of events may help you understand the frustration there.

@apaul yes. You kicked up quite a stir. But what did you get out of it?

User makes a semantic argument about the use of the words "homophobia" and "transphobia" ... I explain the terms and why they fit ... Get downvoted for somehow not answering the question ... Answer was deleted r/a ... Added an extensive explanation, and an explanation of why it's kinda crappy to make the semantic argument ... Answer is then undeleted ... User continues to press the issue.

And somehow, I'm "making a stir"

yes, as i said, i read the history. But what was your goal?

lemme put that another way: who was the audience that you were writing for?

To shed some light on the situation. To hopefully educate the user making the semantic argument. To show people that these things aren't ok. At the very least to say that this isn't a community that you can attack with impunity.

so, you were trying to write for the author, for people who disagreed with the author, and for people who aren't members of the site?

I guess there's a few layers at this point, but you kinda skipped over the point about how those sorts of situations lead to the disillusionment and frustration, which leads to the "burn it down" approach.

no, I get that

Look... I know a person who likes to build stuff, but often rushes in without planning out the build first. So they get a ways in and find out that they didn't measure correctly before cutting, or forgot to sand before finishing, and now it isn't coming out right.

For the author, for the knuckle draggers who would like to agree with the author, for the IPS community, and for the subset of LGBT+ IPS users.

And their first impulse is always... Throw it on the floor. Hit it with a hammer. Burn it down.

And... Yeah, I feel bad for 'em every time. But the next time when I see 'em grabbing a saw and suggest maybe sketching out some plans first, d'you think they do? Of course not. So, I watch, and I wait, and I try & grab stuff before it hits the floor.

That's a long winded way of saying, I'm not gonna fixate on your frustration, because I can't do anything about that. Nothing I say will matter; you do what you do because that's how you do things. I'm only here on the off-chance I can catch something.

In this case, you're writing for three different audiences. Simultaneously. That doesn't work. You can probably see that it didn't work in this instance. There are still a crap-ton of pending flags on that thread, which I assume the IPS mods are leaving for a miserable monday. It's a wreck, because there was no plan and the parts don't fit together.

But you can still fix it if you want to. You just have to decide what you're trying to do. Who you're trying to talk to.

Usually the first impulse is to tell people where to stick it... Then I try to logic away around their crappy perspective, try to lead them to see the holes. Admittedly that's real hard to do when I'd rather throttle them.

I guess I tend to think that the same words hit different ears differently. The author hopefully hears a scolding, with some explanation of why what their doing sucks, and how they could just, ya'know not do that. The community at large hopefully sees it and goes "oh ya, we shouldn't accept that kind of crap". Hopefully other newer/younger LGBT+ folks see that there's a high rep user who has their back, and will push back against the hateful nonsense.

@apaul that's not really what happened though, is it

Nope, not really.

If you look through the other answers, you can find examples of folks writing to each of those audiences, or at least writing in a way that seems designed to be more accessible to one vs. the rest.

That's... Actually one of the biggest advantages of the Stack Exchange model: for any given question and any given solution to that question, you can have multiple perspectives expressed that each serve a different PoV.

It breaks away from the traditional model of instructive or technical writing, which must either try to serve multiple audiences simultaneously (while being less than ideal for most) or serve multiple audiences in turn (which can accomplish the same ends, but at a great increase in time and effort for both the writer and readers).

The best part is... You can come upon a question that's already been answered, and if you see the audience you're adept at writing for ill-served, you can step up to provide an answer for just that group without needing to consider those already well-served by existing answers.

So, I can stick with telling people where to stick it? ;)

You've complained a few times when I've answered your questions without providing an answer that spoke to you. This is not an accident.

Obviously, but often by not doing that you come across as... Well, "this sucks because your approach sucks" or "I'm not going to help till you learn the lesson" or "I'll totally ignore the problem you've laid out, because I don't like the solution proposed"

I actually did propose the thing you mentioned in your last answer that "didn't speak to me" just had to get there through a different context.

@apaul so what's that teach you about what you should expect if you answer a question while not writing for the asker?

Not sure if you really think you're that smooth, or if you're just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks.

I'm mostly baking a pie right now. Just trying to provide a prompt

You're not that smooth.

You asked if you can tell people where to stick it. Obviously, that is how more'n a few people interpreted your answer... So you should know what to expect if you go that route full-bore.

So what's your other option?

If there's a legitimate problem, buried in some anger and emotion, it's sometimes worth talking the author through that. If it's just poorly disguised biggotry... That's a different thing.

Comparing apples and poverty again.

you don't have to answer at all of course. Someone else will. Or the question will be closed and deleted.

That's probably a background issue. Get real tired of letting the shit slide unchallenged. Leads back to that disillusionment and burning the place down.

well, then you're back to self-immolation

Early experience on IPS taught me that I can't count on the horrible biggoted thing being downvoted, challenged, or deleted... There are enough phobic people on the network that often these posts gather a lot of support.

There's usually no response till I start rattling cages and making a stink about it...

Early experience on a site means very little. There is no site, no community, no rules, no momentum... Just a bunch of people.

Well, while that's true... It ignores the issue, and the way that the pattern is still popping up.

so why do you stick around?

Still trying to figure that out

Every time I get to the point of saying "fuck it" something happens that leads me to think that things are going to improve.

All blog post

*aka

y'know what that blog post is?

it's a flag from waaaaay up at the end of the train

it means flip the switch and apply the brakes

but it'll be miles and miles before there's any noticeable effect

and lots and lots of screeching in the meanwhile

so if you're standing in the tracks thinking that flag means the train is gonna stop before it hits you...

...you might wanna move

Ya'know you could've started with that... Or rather something more along the lines of "we know things suck right now, we're working on it. We've signaled for the train to stop, here's what you can do to help..."

Like we could be on the same side? Maybe?

I'm the guy with the broom sweeping up after the dance. If I say I'm on someone's "side", that's just talk. If someone says they're on my side, they better grab a broom.

So, are you a conductor or a porter? Can't really be both...