Discussion between Izzy and apaul

8:10 AM

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A: "Stack Overflow Isn't Very Welcoming" especially [...] marginalized groups?

OP, you are absolutely correct to criticise that point in the article. The author provided some anecdotal evidence for new users feeling intimidated which I think no-one will disagree with, even if SO is well within its rights to ensure new users learn the rules. The author has not, however, p...

Izzy

@ClementCherlin You've not provided a shred of evidence to support your view. If you believe white men are being collectively x-ist against everyone else, post your evidence or you are the social justice problem. And great job for agreeing with me about new users; no-one is contesting that it's difficult for newbies.

apaul

You seem to be arguing that there's not a problem with implicit bias, even after a few others have given clear examples of such bias. "Those of us who have privilege" is not a jab at white men, and putting it that way is in it self a demonstration of bias. Privilege, like most things, is more of a spectrum.

Izzy

@apaul Implicit bias is not a problem. The idea behind it is that it's bias one doesn't even know they have... it's total rubbish. If you think the author meant something different to "White men," when referring to "people with privilege" please feel free to tell me of who he was referring.

apaul

I tend to think that explicit bias is more of a problem than implicit bias, and both have been demonstrated in the backlash to the blog post.

Also the question seemed to be "What I'm curious about is why "women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups" also feel this way." and it doesn't seem like you fall into any of those groups, yet you felt the need to answer...

Maybe, just maybe, that's a symptom of the problem you're claiming doesn't exist?

Izzy

Explicit bias (...that is an actual problem...) is something I'd expect the mods to deal with. Implicit bias isn't a problem. But be careful not to simultaneously hold a moral position against certain actions, while also exercising it.

And I did answer the question: why is the OP still curious? Because the author provided no sources to support their position.

apaul

8:10 AM

Hmm... Why is implicit bias not a problem? Also, my bias is pretty obvious I don't feel the need to hide it. I'm unashamed to have a bias against people who act in racist, sexist, and homophobic ways.

Izzy

@apaul Implicit bias isn't a problem for the same reason your explicit bias (probably) isn't. The problems come from interfering with people's rights, not from favoring different people differently.

And again, I'd be very careful of promoting moral standards if you act against them. Having bias against racists is fine, but also implying that I shouldn't have answered because you don't know what my race, sex, [other], is, seems dubious.

apaul

2:20 PM

@Izzy Just kinda hard not to notice that several people felt the need to claim that there wasn't a problem, or that implicit bias didn't even exist, when they're apparently the sort of people who had the benefit of not being affected by it.

Sounds a lot like "me and the guys talked about it, there's no gender problems here" or "me and the other white people decided that racism isn't a problem"

Izzy

3:03 PM

If they're not being affected by it then their assertions of it not appearing to exist are valid.
If you disagree the burden of proof is on you.
Like I said, 'implicit bias' is bias one doesn't even know they have- the tests for it are not supported by their own creators, so how on earth would anyone claim it exists?
Are the examples you gave actually examples of you being "implicitly biased" against certain races and sexes, or are they just the politically correct instances to use?

Would you, for example, be more likely to accept the opinion of a group of black people or women, if they also claimed that sexism or racism wasn't a problem?
You have to be incredibly careful you don't fall for these kind of traps, friend.

apaul

5:14 PM

Ya... Almost forgot I was talking to someone who uses the term "Social Justice Warriors"

@Izzy plato.stanford.edu/entries/implicit-bias

Either Stack Exchange is the first group of humans in recorded history to have solved all of the problems of race and gender, or there's room for improvement.

The examples I gave were examples of the majority deciding how the minority felt about the issue, without bothering to consult the minority... Thought that was pretty straight forward...

@Izzy And, yes, I would be a little more inclined to believe that the group of black people, or women, would be more qualified to speak about their own experience in a community. At the very least, far more qualified than a white man who couldn't be bothered to ask before making claims, and particularly more qualified than anyone who throws out the good old "social justice warrior propoganda" argument.

It kind of sounds like you're trying to hint at it being a trap to dismiss the opinion of the straight white male crowd... That's an awfully thin place to build your argument, for the reasons mentioned above.

Basically you probably don't see the problem because you're not positioned to see it, you'd rather not see it because you don't want to be implicated, and may very well be unintentionally (or intentionally) contributing to it.

Izzy

5:56 PM

Do Social Justice Warriors exist?

(yes, they do.)

Does implicit bias exist? I don't think so- and, again, the people who devised the test found it didn't produce repeatable results.

What does minority/majority have to do with anything?

Surely a democracy should default to the will of the majority anyway, but that's besides the point.

You admit you're explicitly biased in favour of one race and one gender over others... why on earth does that mean I should regard your opinion on social issues highly?

I'm describing the trap of social justice, it's the soft bigotry of low expectations.

And what if I'm not even white, or male, all you know is that I have a zoid as a icon?

Does "Izzy" sound like a typical white, male, name to you?

Do you not see how absurd of a position this ideology has put you in?

And it's entirely possible that when white men say they don't see any implicit bias they're speaking from introspection, because they're clearly the target of such charges.

apaul

7:53 PM

@Izzy So, no one has ever had a subconscious bias that leads them to behave poorly? Based on what? Your opinion of one set of tools? Sounds completely reasonable /s

@Izzy The post was asking about minority experience.

@Izzy When the will of the majority is to oppress the minority, is that ethically acceptable?

@Izzy I didn't say I was explicitly biased. I said that I trust that people are more qualified to speak for themselves.

@Izzy Interesting interpretation... Couldn't possibly be that a lot of people in minority groups are just sick of putting up with being mistreated...

@Izzy Your rhetoric would seem to indicate... Just sayin.

@Izzy Actually pretty much everyone has some level of implicit bias. I took the tests. I just didn't pitch a fit when it didn't tell me what I wanted to hear.

apaul

9:11 PM

@Izzy if you really require mathematical certainty, here you go: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_multiplier

Izzy

10:27 PM

@apaul A subconscious bias is one you don't even know you have. It's not a conscious bias, it's subconscious. Do you not appreciate how much of a difference that is?

@apaul No, the post was about injustice.

@apaul Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of SE users "oppress" any minority group? Are you quite sane?

@apaul You said you'd believe black people and women more than white people and men, that's explicit bias.

@apaul You're moving quite far from meaningful conversation at this point.

@apaul Because no minority group has ever told you how stupid it is to assume they're incapable of sticking to SE rules at the same rate as everyone else.

@apaul Take them several times- you'll get different results.

@apaul "mathematical certainty" ? You're quite insane, there's clearly a criticism section which outlines the various errs of the ... model.

I feel this conversation has run its useful course and I'll permit you a final say, that is all.

apaul

10:52 PM

@Izzy Yes, I do. I also realize that some would prefer not to do that introspection.

@Izzy In a way it was.

@Izzy Seems like you deliberately misinterpreted that one. Try answering without adding context. In general is majority rule ethical, even if the majority decides to oppress the minority?

@Izzy Again, deliberately misinterpreted... Really lame argument technique. I would sooner believe a woman talking about how a woman experiences the network, or a black person talking about how a black person experiences the network.

@Izzy Nah, just seems that I've overestimated your understanding of the issues...

@Izzy Ooo a strawman? Nicely done. You're conflating quality with bias. Kinda separate issues that I never attempted to mix.

@Izzy Probably slightly different. It's a tool. If I swing a hammer a dozen times I'll probably get better or worse strikes, doesn't really mean the hammer is broken.

@Izzy Ya, hyperbole for comedic effect. Bit... if I remember correctly, one of the main criticisms was that the imbalance should be more pronounced.

@Izzy Oh dear me? You're already declaring victory? Guess I'll have to... Oh wait... Nevermind... Almost cared for a minute there. Glad I caught myself before something happened.

Izzy

11:09 PM

A rather less than civil response- Best of luck in your future endeavours.

apaul

@Izzy I mean if you really want to address the points rather than playing games, we can do that.

Transcript for

Discussion between Izzy and apaul