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vzn
5:51 PM
11
A: Can moderators spam members' email?

PëkkaThere is an agreement that moderators must sign before gaining moderator rights. It says, I acknowledge that I may have access to potentially personally-identifying information about Stack Overflow users and that in connection with such access I will use such information solely i...

what "scrutiny" are you referring to? — vzn 2 hours ago
@vzn mainly the public discussion that takes place during the election, users checking out track records, past misdeeds being published, etc. — Pëkka 1 hour ago
ok. feel that post-election "scrutiny" generally declines dramatically after the authority is instated. or rather there may be later scrutiny, but it is relatively powerless/without much consequence &/or relies on mod sympathy (which seems generally low) — vzn 1 hour ago
@vzn my impression is the opposite - people complaining about moderator behaviour on Meta are always given their say. It's just that 99% of complaints turn out to be unfounded (i.e. the community tends to support the moderator's actions). Also, there is always the possibility to complain about a moderator to the team. I have no reason to believe serious complaints wouldn't be followed up upon by them — Pëkka 57 mins ago
huh. interesting. "given their say" and 99% "unfounded" (aka overruled) sounds exactly like "relatively powerless/without much consequence" for non-mods. think moderators are extremely rarely opposed/overruled by each other & the se team. so the community is basically trained/conditioned not to oppose them in general, even possibly on gray areas open for legitimate disagreement eg scope, policy, etc... which means meta is not really much for free/open discussion of policy and/or brainstorming/suggestions of "good ideas" but more justification/enforcement of official views. — vzn 50 mins ago
@vzn Discussions about policy actually have nothing to do with behavior of/support for moderators. Discussions about whether moderators are following that policy are a different matter, of course. And you are making an assumption; why can't it just be that 99% of the time, the moderator was right? I've seen numerous mods 'corrected' by the CM team. Including myself. (Granted; nothing big, but still.) — Andrew Barber 40 mins ago
@vzn - All moderators can see all actions taken by other moderators, and we are regularly questioned about them by other moderators and by SE staff. Because this often relies on non-public information, these conversations are not visible to the average user on SE sites. We can be fairly brutal with our criticisms of each other, and SE staff is not hesitant to tell us "What in the world were you thinking? Go fix this immediately." if we screw up in the least. Also, we're very regularly taken to task by the community (one of the new moderators has been called out 3 times already on Meta). — Brad Larson 38 mins ago
It should also be pointed out that there are very real consequences to any moderator violating any part of the SE moderator agreement, intentional or no: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/187557/135615Brad Larson 37 mins ago
@vzn that sounds very conspiracy-theorist-y to me. Yes, moderators are relatively rarely overruled by each other, the community, and the team. I put it to you it's because they're doing a really good job overall. If you have actual instances in mind where it didn't, please show them.... moderators have nothing to do with policy decisions, so I'm not sure how that plays into it. Moderators are supposed to enforce policy and should be overruled when they are not acting in accordance with policy. — Pëkka 32 mins ago
not a conspiracy but indeed a bit paranoid after 2+yrs on se... think responses are missing pt but not feeling like saying anything else at 1% odds =( you win! & half expecting this whole exchange to be deleted soon by a mod.... fleeing the shootdown gallery asap.... — vzn 22 mins ago
@vzn that's disingenious nonsense and you know it. If you have an actual, specific complaint, then make a Meta post about it. (And yes, this exchange is likely to get deleted - not because someone is speaking out against mods, but because that's what routinely happens to most long discussions in comments.) — Pëkka 21 mins ago
@vzn if people disagreeing with you is a "shootdown gallery" to you, then there indeed is no point in communicating any further. — Pëkka 16 mins ago
will continue in chat with anyone who wishes to actually participate in real/civil discussion on this subject, plz invite me to one if you feel you have an open mind — vzn 10 mins ago
@vzn here is a room: chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/710/… I'll be on and off all day, make sure you @-ping me — Pëkka 5 mins ago
 
Do you have a specific complaint to make, or an example of a complaint that was not handled right?
 
vzn
after 2+yrs dont really wanna dig up specifics.
am not agreeing to your framing of "complaints". never used that word.
feel you all are putting words in my mouth
 
I didn't say you used that word. But without some specific examples, there is very little we can talk about.
 
vzn
basically, have observed this 99% aspect on meta. it makes me wanna not participate whatsoever on metas.
am talking about a systemic issue. not really about specifics. its more like "death by paper cuts".
 
What exactly are you referring to? Can you make a specific example?
 
vzn
5:59 PM
no not at the moment.
why do you participate in the mod-parody chat room?
 
Because it's fun
 
vzn
is it all a massive joke on anyone who questions mods?
 
No.
But as said, in my experience, most complaints are unfounded.
The chat room exists to parody those.
 
vzn
its definitely a massive joke, or massive long running joke.
oh.
thx for clarifying that.
sometimes se feels like a big sociology/psychology experiment to me.
 
Look, moderators are supposed to enforce policy. Not to interpret it. I think I know what you're getting at when talking about the Meta sites - there is sometimes a very strong consensus and people will downvote ideas that go against that consensus. But that's how it is supposed to work. If you have an idea that people don't agree with, then you won't be able to get them to agree with you. That's just the way it is.
 
vzn
6:02 PM
right.
status quo
 
Exactly. You'll find it everywhere human beings form groups.
It's not bad in itself
 
vzn
have read meta on various sites over 2+ yrs and occasionally engaged in Q/A, mostly comments.
 
Right
 
vzn
human groups have various aspects.
not all of them positive/benign.
 
Also true.
 
vzn
6:03 PM
group aspects come from individual aspects. its a feedback loop.
certain aspects/qualities are amplified in certain groups.
must admit am sharing some amusement on your massive mod joke room.
its quite an exercise.
 
@vzn it has some really cool jokes. (Writing a serious answer though, one moment)
 
vzn
but, misinterpreted your intentions. thought it might be born of someone's frustrations. or that ppl contributing might be frustrated about mod "culture".
 
@vzn True. I'm not saying I agree with everything that goes on on the SE sites or their Metas, not by a long shot. But the thing is, these places serve a purpose - and that is the day-to-day running of the main sites. If a suggestion comes in that proposes a massive change that is not doable in the eyes of experienced members (like the oft-requested mandatory comment on downvotes), then that suggestion is going to be voted down. It's simply the way it is.
 
vzn
right. however imho a suggestion that is massive is a strawman.
maybe even minor suggestions, some that could be useful, are routinely shot down in a/the shooting gallery atmosphere.
so, imho, there is a sort of gestalt going on.
 
@vzn an example might be helpful.
 
vzn
6:07 PM
a forest made up of trees.
there are many examples. across many se's.
but like fish swimming in the water, the (cloudiness in the?) water is invisible/imperceptible to the fish.
 
That's entirely possible.
But in the end, you can't force the community to agree with a specific suggestion.
 
vzn
in the end, nothing can be changed without ... ???
 
What do you mean?
I don't understand
 
vzn
dont fully understand myself.
just sitting with, maybe even slightly embracing the non-understanding a bit.
it seems to be like a zen question.
 
Heh.
 
vzn
6:10 PM
your mod-stabbing room seems a bit zen.
 
It is.
:)
 
vzn
in a twisty way.
zen is twisty.
:)
have researched se culture very intensely over 2+ yrs.
starting from my 1st close/deletion on tcs.se by a mod, 1st site wrote to.
1st question was closed deleted iirc.
so its been a long saga for me.
 
That's much appreciated (many people don't take the time to do that).
 
vzn
also interested in the se blogs written by insiders & the ceo
did you see that blog "summer of love"?
 
I did. I've posted many many suggestions related to it on Meta
 
vzn
6:13 PM
hmm ok.
my question is why is it only one summer? :\
anyway se seems to have a distinctive culture that is at least not exactly the same as a random sample of humans....
 
That's not true. It's very much an ongoing discussion, and plenty of changes have been made to the system to create a friendlier athmosphere
But consider that it is not an easy problem to solve.
How do you control the behaviour of tens of thousands of volunteers?
 
vzn
like "ongoing discussion" :)
control is a heavy word there.
nudge/influence would be better
 
Volunteers who are often deeply frustrated about huge amounts of low quality questions?
The garbage that is coming in is one reason why I'm not very active any more, for example
 
vzn
ah, so there is some frustration ... by mods!
you seem to be very active by pts, not active where?
 
You mean caused by mods?
 
vzn
6:16 PM
oh you mean volunteers incl both users/mods?
 
I've not been terribly active recently, on SO for example
 
vzn
yeah have tended to drop my activity some lately outside of main sites
 
By volunteers I mean exclusively users, in this case.
I very rarely see moderators being unfriendly. Do you?
I mean, actually unfriendly, not just closing questions.
Because that's their job.
 
vzn
the exchange that led to this chat did not strike me as much "friendly"
and 2 mods have already jumped into it.
not sure what drew their attn to it.
 
I see no unfriendliness in what the moderators said. They simply disagreed with you.
 
vzn
6:17 PM
activity on the post? dunno. was it on the front page?
not unfriendly. hmmm.
 
Yes, everything is on the front page when a new answer comes in.
And why on earth should they not respond? Seeing as it's them you're accusing of improper behaviour
 
vzn
did not attack them personally.
 
No, but as a group
 
vzn
did not mention any improper behavior.
feel there is some "projections" going on
 
If their responses strike you as "unfriendly" or as a "shooting gallery", then there really is nothing to say, I think.
 
vzn
6:19 PM
have to think more. need to take break. will write some more later.
appreciate your time.
 
Sure!
And no worries, it's just a couple of web sites
Make sure you ping me please, in case I close this window
 
vzn
did not accuse them of being unfriendly. only said they seemed not friendly.
 
Later!
 
vzn
not sure if those are equivalent.
ah, its a lot more than a couple of web sites.
 
Stuff can come across as not friendly on the web, even if it is perfectly neutral.
 
vzn
6:20 PM
tens of thousands of volunteers etc.
 
Both those mods are very friendly people.
 
vzn
the ceo said hes interested in improving tone
 
@vzn true, but what I'm saying is it's not worth overly getting worked up about
 
vzn
did a major datamining exercise on that.
ppl seem to get very worked up on se in various places.
 
Yes, and he showed examples. But they're far far different from the polite disagreement you received from those two moderators.
 
vzn
6:21 PM
have to fight to stay calm myself sometimes :\
"polite disagreement" huh ok.
 
Yes, everyone does occasionally. :)
 
vzn
anyway in a single word here is something that concerns me re se culture.
 
But how is this comment, for example anything but friendly?
29 mins ago, by vzn
@vzn Discussions about policy actually have nothing to do with behavior of/support for moderators. Discussions about whether moderators are following that policy are a different matter, of course. And you are making an assumption; why can't it just be that 99% of the time, the moderator was right? I've seen numerous mods 'corrected' by the CM team. Including myself. (Granted; nothing big, but still.) — Andrew Barber 40 mins ago
 
vzn
Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences. Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and indep...
will add a bit later
again thx for the time/pov
 
Sure.
It would be more helpful to see some specifics, though,.
And allow for the possibility that you are projecting things into people's responses that aren't really there.
This stuff goes both ways.
Anyway, later!
 
6:48 PM
reads room name No.
leaves
 
vzn
7:36 PM
undo probably thinks its 99.5%
stalemate!
it seems the culture is fixated on win/lose situations instead of attempting to find win-win situations.
suggest its not a matter of right vs wrong & that thinking distorts the picture.
death by paper cuts!
1 hour ago, by Pëkka
Volunteers who are often deeply frustrated about huge amounts of low quality questions?
an interesting thought. users/mods, both frustrated? pekka says he ment users only. ie nonmods?
but why would nonmods be much concerned about quality of questions?
am amazed by the ubiquitous use of the phrase quality of questions se wide.
has it declined? is that the assertion?
votes measure quality of questions, basically, right?
so couldnt that be quantified with datamining?
am interested in quantifying various assertions. similarly to the ceo exercise in identifying unfriendly comments.
 
fuck no
they are annoying
 
vzn
haha ok
how did you get 23 pts (barely above chat threshhold) with no apparent activity?
this meta q by a mod showed up on an se hang out at
8
Q: What do you think of the Stack Exchange main meta site?

GillesThis question is intended to collect opinions from people who frequent multiple Stack Exchange sites, including Computer Science, and who are not regulars of Stack Overflow. Each Stack Exchange site has a meta site (like the one you're reading now), intended for discussions, support questions, b...

a rare moment of introspection
by gilles, quite the se commander
 
vzn
8:05 PM
currently at a stunning ~415k
 
Can you clarify what exactly it is that you are unhappy with?
2
 
vzn
...as soon as that happens am sure you would explain why the unhappiness [not nec agreeing with that] is based on a faulty assumption or whatever
following the pattern of all response so far.
"here is why you have no basis to feel that way at all..."
 
shrug
I thought you were interested in a serious discussion.
OK then, I guess there is nothing to be done here
 
vzn
not sure you are qualified for that given your extraordinary joke expertise
this is a halfway serious "discussion" so far.
havent really seen anything like it... sarcastic/biting/acerbic...
dont recall seeing lightbulb jokes used with reverse psychology...
 
I don't think you're making a lot of sense.
 
vzn
8:19 PM
actually agree with you that probably there is nothing to be done here...
this site doesnt make a lot of sense to me...
 
I guess so. I'm out! Bye.
 
vzn
cheers
hmmm, maybe am really looking for a psychologist & not a high rep user or moderator....
maybe if se hired someone with psychology background.... now theres an idea....
speaking of feelings... which you were....
on other hand the ceo blogs about stuff related to feelings also...
 
I don't think a reasonable person would rate any of the exchanges we had here or in the other question as unfriendly or "not friendly".
You may need to check your perception filters. Seriously.
 
vzn
do you think you are my friend?
do you think the other moderators are my friend?
 
No, but I was trying to be nice
Apparently a waste of time.
 
vzn
8:25 PM
ah. anyway that is what was meant by "not friendly".
trying to be nice too.
in accordance/conformance with official policy se wide.
 
Yeah, it shows
> havent really seen anything like it... sarcastic/biting/acerbic...
Anyway, I'm out.
This is not leading anywhere constructive.
 
vzn
you think your joke room & long contributions there are not sarcastic/biting/acerbic?
you think your joke room is "leading somewhere constructive"?
what specific aspect of all your responses can actually be identified as "friendly"?
admittedly, recently attempted to make some contributions to your project in the spirit in which it was intended
but was a bit mixed up about its intentions which were unclear from its literal face...
theres that word constructive again, used all over se like quality questions....
apparently the whole enterprise is about constructing something largely through writing...
another se zen word/phrase to ponder & meditate on...
actually, do agree you have exhibited more apparent friendliness than the other mods who somehow zeroed in like circling hawks on our exchange....
speaking of a psychologist, also a sociologist & anthropologist might be useful on staff also...
Anthropology is the study of humankind, past and present, that draws and builds upon knowledge from social and biological sciences, as well as the humanities and the natural sciences. Since the work of Franz Boas and Bronisław Malinowski in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, anthropology in Great Britain and the US has been distinguished from ethnology and from other social sciences by its emphasis on cross-cultural comparisons, long-term in-depth examination of context, and the importance it places on participant-observation or experiential immersion in the area of research. Cult...
Sociology is the study of human social behavior and its origins, development, organizations, and institutions. It is a social science which uses various methods of empirical investigation and critical analysis to develop a body of knowledge about human social actions, social structure and functions. A goal for many sociologists is to conduct research which may be applied directly to social policy and welfare, while others focus primarily on refining the theoretical understanding of social processes. Subject matter ranges from the micro level of individual agency and interaction to the m...
Psychology is an academic and applied discipline that involves the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors. Psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases, and by many accounts it ultimately aims to benefit society. In this field, a professional or researcher is called a psychologist and can be classified as a social, behavioral, or cognitive scientist. Psychologists attempt to understand the role of mental functions in individual and social behavior, while also exploring the ...
 
 
2 hours later…
vzn
10:36 PM
another key concept....
Emotional intelligence (EI) is the ability to identify, assess, and control the emotions of oneself, of others, and of groups. It can be divided into ability EI and trait EI. Criticisms have centered on whether EI is a real intelligence and whether it has incremental validity over IQ and the Big Five personality traits. History In 1983, Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences introduced the idea that traditional types of intelligence, such as IQ, fail to fully explain cognitive ability. He introduced the idea of multiple intelligences which included both...
 
@vzn I think you're beating a dead horse :/
 
vzn
maybe so.
how did the horse die?
"beating" sounds so harsh/violent.
think its meta where the verbal lashings transpire.
 
@vzn I can't say whether the meta discussions are "lashings", but I try to be fair and nice. :) It's a good goal for everyone, I think.
 
vzn
11:23 PM
thx for that wink
must be a slow chat day look at all the curious onlookers haha
does anyone have info on the new/planned split occuring with se overflow meta?
gilles was talking about it above
3stars eh?
3 hours ago, by Pëkka
Can you clarify what exactly it is that you are unhappy with?
repeat, never used word "unhappy" myself
so P is "telling me how I feel"
 
@vzn Yup. Look here. Or head over to the Tavern.
 
vzn
thx.
seems to be delayed somewhat
ok see updates
> Today, Stack Overflow continues to graciously host discussions about the entire network on its extremely hard won meta site, ...
"gracious host" lol
yeah thx much for that gracious hosting.
"discussions"....
what does he mean by "extremely hard won meta site"?
 
11:50 PM
There was a blog post that Jeff did about how much he hates meta, but after an epic battle between the community and Jeff, he finally agreed to create a meta site for Stack Overflow (which became Stack Exchange's unofficial meta site).
 

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