Server Fault

1:00 AM

I definitely prefer it to inline. I've not made up my mind on the location choice, however.

3:02 AM

You know, @Zoredache.. it might be cool if the feed updates were like Outlook's popup notifications. Not intrusive yet still informative.

Evan Anderson

3:44 AM

I prefer the feed notification, too, but I like @Warner's suggestion re: emulating the Outlook popup notification feel.

Kyle Brandt

1:23 PM

I like this feed better than inline but I would still rather see it take up some of the stared space or have it be to the right of the send button

Josh

2:06 PM

If there's any linux/VMware experts in here today, I'd love to hash out a server upgrade plan I have for my company with you guys before I talk it over with our senior management here this morning

Warner

You were looking to review the technical details?

Josh

Yeah, specifically hardware details

We have a managed dedicated server, an 8-core 2.2 GHz Intel Xeon(R) CPU server with 12GB RAM

running VMware server

It runs 2 shared hosting virtual machines, and a number of other VMs for development, monitoring, etc

I would guess roughly 200 shared hosting accounts total on a mix of cPanel and Virtualmin

Looking to upgrade, wanted to hash out my plans for moving to a 32-core server

Warner

2:29 PM

I can review with you but can't guarantee that I'll be the help you're looking for. =)

Josh

Thanks! :-) Sorry, office people talking to me, distracting me from chat, LOL

You recall my resource contention or whatever it is issue with Apache?

I'm hoping to alleviate that as well as make things faster and increase my ability to scale/add more accounts

my plan is to move to a more powerful dedicated server, a 32-core AMD Quad x8 Opteron 6128 2.0GHz

Continue to run VMware server, but instead of just two web/email/ftp/cpanel servers, run a small cluster of web-only VMs, all load balanced

so I'd have one VM acting as a load balancer, distributing load across, say, 8 webserver-only VMs, all NFS-mounting /home from a single cPanel email/admin server

I just wonder if I'm going the wrong direction, if instead of considering more cores I should switch to 2 physical servers instead

Oh, I'm also considering having these 8 VMs boot off an SSD drive, so they should be lightning fast. The NFS mount they'll all be mounting will be on a RAID10

(We're currently using RAID10)

Kyle Brandt

3:12 PM

SSDs are not always faster

Josh

@KyleBrandt Oh? I was considering using those for the webserver VMs and some databases to reduce resource contention on my RAID10

Would you suggest two servers with two RAID10 arrays instead?

Kyle Brandt

Probably good for Webservers. Databases it depends on the IO Pattern

Basically SSD excel at randrom reads

Josh

Yeah, and I am concerned that some of the load on my current setup is from read contention

Kyle Brandt

@sysadmin1138 has done a lot of SSD research I believe

Josh

most databases are wordpress/joomla/ecommerce sites, so probably 75% - 90% reads

@KyleBrandt Awesome, thanks! I got my meeting pushed back and am composing a "real" SF question now

Zypher

3:19 PM

@Josh i would also seriously look at ditching VMWare server for ESX(i) you see a performance boost by going to a light-wieght hypervisor instead of having a to deal with a a full blown OS as a base

Josh

@Zypher That's one of the things I'd like to do

Zypher

Also - i'm not sure about this - I don't think VMWare server has some of hte more advanced stuff like the memory balooning and over-commit that ESX does (i may be way off here )

Josh

One major issue is, the server is in a managed facility, so I have to install and manage remotely

Kyle Brandt

Can VMWare server even use that many cores?

Josh

I'm thinking of leasing a KVM-over-IP device for the first month or two

Zypher

3:21 PM

@Josh do they provide remote IP KVM access ? If they do it shouldn't be much of an issue

Josh

to get ESXi installed

Zypher

i would look at not getting rid of it

Josh

Can I get in to ESXi via SSH after it's installed?

Zypher

KVM-o-IP is much win

Josh

And doesn't ESXi have pretty strict hardware requirements?

Zypher

3:22 PM

esxi i don't think so wi/ hackery

any modern top of the line server will be supported

Kyle Brandt

@Josh: You need to enable ssh via vcenter or the console. but it is not hard

Just hidden

Josh

@KyleBrandt Sweet.

@Zypher Cool. I've never had a chance to try installing it on server grade hardware, only consumer grade which it rejected

Zypher

vmware.com/resources/compatibility/…

yea you can do it on consumer grade

if you get the right stuff

Josh

@Zypher That's they key :-) It always complained about the ethernet card

Zypher

I almost got esxi onto a mac mini once

Josh

3:23 PM

and I never botheerd to get the right onew

Zypher

i stopped when i had to manually compile the nic drivers

everything else worked fine

Kyle Brandt

For ssh you click on the server, go to the configuration tab, click the "Security Profile". Then lick properties, then click options of remote tech support (ssh)

Zypher

of course v4 kernel panics when the nic isn't supported ...

Josh

@KyleBrandt Awesome, thanks!

Kyle Brandt

You might want to save that , hidden in the typical windows style fashion

Josh

3:25 PM

Do you think I could load-balance web requests successfully off of ~8 virtual webservers? My issue is, since vCPU VMs seem to behave... erratically... 32 cores doesn't help me much over the 8 I have now, unless I have a lot more VMs running

Kyle Brandt

@Josh: Actually don't even think of using VMWare server for this

You want ESX

Josh

Cool

Warner

Unless there is an OS limitation, I'm not sure I see the advantage of having 8 Web servers.

Maybe 2, in case of software failure. But really, with virtualization, does that architecture still make sense?

Josh

@Warner The issue is, with VMware Server anyway, VMs with more than on vCPU can have worse performance than with a single VCPU

Kyle Brandt

@Josh: I doubt that is still true with ESX

Warner

3:28 PM

Yeah, that was an old issue.

Josh

@Warner OK, cool

Kyle Brandt

I think you should build an ESX Machine with 4 or more cores and do a bunch of testing

Warner

I wouldn't run production on VMWare server, period. Either cough up the money for their HA magic, licensing, and management -- or use KVM/Xen/OSS virtualization.

Josh

@KyleBrandt Yeah, ideally, that would be the best bet.

@Warner Switching to Xen is another possibility

I'm also considering switching to a Managed Xen solution... since I have no experience with Xen

Kyle Brandt

If one of the execs asks "Are you just making !@$ up?" .. You don't want to hesitate :-P

Warner

3:30 PM

Xen is cool. KVM seems to be more supported now, as RHEL replaced Xen with KVM.

Xen has hot failover, memory copies..

OSS virtualization is production grade. Most of the VMWare magic is for Windows, anyway.

Josh

@Warner True

Kyle Brandt

ESX for 32 cores is probably quite a bit of change

Josh

@KyleBrandt Yeah it would be ESXi for me :-)

Any experience with Xen and multiple vCPU VMs?

Kyle Brandt

Oh does ESX != ESXi ?

Josh

ESXi is now free vmware.com/products/vsphere-hypervisor/index.html

unless I misunderstand :-)

Warner

3:33 PM

How does ESXi compare to VMWare Server?

Josh

ESXi installs as the OS; VMWare Server installs on top of the OS

as I understand it

Kyle Brandt

@Josh: Look to the right of that link

"The name has changed..."

Warner

From a feature set perspective.

Kyle Brandt

VMWare products are impossible to understand"

Josh

@KyleBrandt Bah!

Kyle Brandt

3:34 PM

They change the name every week to something that makes no sense

Josh

@KyleBrandt Agreed

So what I'm really considering is vSphere Hypervisor based on VMware ESXi

:-)

Quote:

What is the difference between VMware vSphere Hypervisor and VMware Server?
Both VMware vSphere Hypervisor and VMware Server are available for free. However, VMware vSphere Hypervisor is the recommended free solution for customers looking to get started with VMware virtualization. vSphere Hypervisor is an enterprise-class virtualization solution that offers the bare-metal architecture for near-native performance, features like memory overcommit to increase consolidation ratios and a cluster file system for managing virtual machine files on shared storage. VMware Server, on the other…

Kyle Brandt

@Josh: I don't know man ... good luck with all that ;-)

I just bought the basic 6 core $500 dollar package to run a couple domain controllers

Josh

@KyleBrandt Yeah really. You think I'm crazy huh? :-)

Warner

Their marketing is frustrating. They're just packaging Linux "bare metal architecture," ha.

Josh

@Warner I know! Argh

Kyle Brandt

3:38 PM

@Josh: No your plan doesn't sound insane, I am just saying I am not going to invest any more effort in understanding all their stuff than I have too

It really is worse than MS editions

Josh

@KyleBrandt LOL! Gotcha :-)

@Warner to address your question of why 8 VM webservers -- I'm trying to give additional CPU power because many sites are PHP-heavy. So 8 was to utilize 8 cores, because with VMWare Server I can't reliably have more than one vCPU per VM. But you guys are saying this limitation doesn't apply with Xen?

Could I reliably have 2 Xen webserver VMs with 4 vCPUs on a physical server with 32 cores?

Warner

Typically, the free version of VMWare does not include vmotion or the HA solutions. I'd be shocked if that changed.

Josh

@Warner I would love to try vmotion -- That sounds so freaking cool. But we only have one physical dedicated production server :-)

Warner

oh wow.

That's such a single point of failure.

Richard Gadsden

Suggestions for a good virtualisation solution that doesn't require VT extensions on the server? I just installed Hyper-V on an old Dell 1850 and (annoyingly) it installs and lets you create a VM but not start any VMs because there's no VT extensions on the server.

Josh

3:44 PM

@Warner Yeah. Tell me about it!

Warner

Why not buy a bunch of commodity boxes with the budget for your massive VM server, which you'll at least have HA with?

VMWare Server didn't. Most don't (didn't?) require it but don't perform as well, @Richard.

Josh

@Warner Our CEO is against buying, our datacenter of choice (who are really, really great) is in another state. We've always gotten managed dedicated hardware so upgrades and hardware maintaince is covered

Kyle Brandt

My vote is for commodity as well. Big Iron seems to make sense around the 1 million+ IT budgets

Josh

If we bought commodity boxes not only would that be a large upfront investment (we're a small business) but it also means when they break I'd have to go out there to fix em -- or find a local datacenter, where I'd still have to go fix em :-)

@RichardGadsden Yeah VMWare Server doesn't require VT extensions

@KyleBrandt WHat I could do would be like 3 less powerful dedicated servers

Warner

Indeed, @KyleBrandt. I'm not huge on the virtualization bandwagon, the ROI just isn't there in most cases. It's just marketed well.

It's a shame you're not coming down for LinuxFest. You should come next year, @Kyle.

Josh

3:48 PM

@Warner For my company I like the compartmentalization and ease of migrating VMs across physical hardware which is important given that I don't own the hardware :-)

Kyle Brandt

@Warner: When is it?

Josh

And where is it @Warner?

Kyle Brandt

Oh this weekend in Ohio

Josh

@KyleBrandt Damn, I'd like to go too and that's almost close enough for me to drive, but I'm waaay too busy

Gotta step AFK for a bit, I'll check back in like 45 minutes. Thanks a lot for your advice @KyleBrandt and @Warner!!

And @Zypher

Kyle Brandt

Ya, I had tickets for the Linux Foundation one but didn't have time to go

Evan Anderson

5:08 PM

@Warner: I'm still up in the air on the Friday Linuxfest date (depends where I get with work today), but I'm definitely in for Saturday. I need to sit down with the talk list and see what I'm interested in seeing.

Kyle Brandt

Don't be shy with covering people in SF stickers :-)

Evan Anderson

I'll weigh-in on the virtualization debate a bit. In general, I'm not positive on the idea of creating single points of failure by piling a bunch of production infrastructure on a few boxes. OTOH, having too many physical boxes is just multiplying your odds of failure, too. I am of the VMware "religion", and the ESXi hypervisor (whatever they're calling it this week) is very similar to the ESX hypervisor (a lighter embedded Linux OS runs as the "service console"

as opposed to the full-blown RHEL variant that ESX uses).

ESXi being no-cost means that it can sneak into a lot of low-hanging-fruit situations where ESX would be too expensive. If the application doesn't need the VMware HA functionality often ESXi can be a good fit.

ESXi "free", that is. You can add HA features to ESXi for money, too.

In situations where you've got "utility" boxes that vendors demand be separate OS installs a virtualization infrastructure can result in better utilization of the physical hardware, and lower cooling and electricity costs.

Kyle Brandt

Is there a CPU limit on free ESXi?

Evan Anderson

Going overboard, though, with the attitude of "everything must be virtual" for the sake of virtualization is, like any "tech for tech's sake" argument, stupid. If it makes business sense to virtualize, then do it.

The free version, if memory serves, is limited to 4 physical sockets and 6 cores per socket.

I'm gonna go look.

Kyle Brandt

Hmm... perhaps I threw away 500 bucks for these ESXi licenses then ... oh well :-P

Evan Anderson

5:15 PM

Probably not, though. Having some amount of support is worth it.

Yeah-- that 6 core per CPU, 4 sockets is the current limit on the free version. The physical limit, assuming the highest-end license ("Enterprise Plus"... shiny... gold...) is 12 cores per socket and 128 logical CPUs per host.

Kyle Brandt

It came with the thing that makes it so you can view multiple servers in one interface which I guess is kind of nice

Zoredache

the 'free' version doen't support some things like actually setting up syslog or snmp

Josh

Thanks for the advice @EvanAnderson!

@EvanAnderson That's very helpful!!

My business case for virtualization is to pack more linux configs onto a single box, that is, mixing Ubuntu and CentOS, separating SVN server from production web hosting, etc. Our budget doesn't allow for a separate physical server for each application, nor would some take advantage of the resources

A major concern is the web hosting software we use (either cPanel or Virtualmin) -- both take complete control over the linux install they're on and if you don't do things their way, things break -- badly

So I let cPanel do what it does and create separate VMs which I can fine-tune the configs on

Kyle Brandt

You might have a look at openvz

Nice lightweight linux virtualization

Josh

@KyleBrandt Thanks, that's a possibility! I also run one Solaris VM, but we may be dropping that

Meeting with management team is about to start. Again, thanks a lot for everyone's advice!! I'll be back soon with information on what our team decided :-)

Kyle Brandt

5:28 PM

@Josh: Well several medium servers might be better for you than one big one with all this stuff

All you would need is a half rack at managed hosting maybe

Josh

@KyleBrandt Yeah, and unfortunately it's much more expensive that way :-/

Kyle Brandt

So where is this one big server going to go?

Josh

@EvanAnderson This is actually really, really helpful -- the server I was looking at was eight quad core processors so ESX free or vSphere or whatever the name is this minute is out

@KyleBrandt Hosted datacenter in Michigan

@KyleBrandt liquidweb.com

Kyle Brandt

And they charge per server?

Evan Anderson

@Zoredache: The limitations re: SNMP, syslog, using the RCLI on the free version are very frustrating, to say the least.

Josh

5:30 PM

@KyleBrandt Per dedicated server, Unless I use their new cloud offering...

Kyle Brandt

Interesting, I have never seen that billing scheme before

Josh

@KyleBrandt I was specifically looking at: liquidweb.com/cart/content/dedicated/Enterprise/Plan2

Anyway, gotta run. bbs!

Kyle Brandt

Sounds like your company should grow a little :-)

Warner

@EvanAnderson looking forward to meeting you. Have all the swag ready for distribution, have a few ideas that I'll try to line up too. Bringing a camera. I will definitely be there on Friday and Saturday.

Zypher

Anyone know how to kick a user off a windows 7 box?

Warner

5:34 PM

You can buy single dedicated at most smaller data centers, @KyleBrandt.

How many employees does the company you work for have, @Josh?

Zoredache

@Zypher, what do you mean? RDP, local locked session, or what? I find pulling the power will work every time. >:)

Josh

5:52 PM

sorry in a meeting @KyleBrandt, will respond when I'm back

Zypher

@Zored local console .. yea i gave up after 30 seconds of looking and hard powered

the "other credentials" button only let me choose the current user or a smart card

Zoredache

There was not 'switch user' button displayed?

Zypher

no it was there but didn't let me type in my creds, just pick the currently logged in user or a smart card

Zoredache

You must have things locked down with group policies or something different from my enviroment.

Zypher

ahh that could be ... i don't the desktop team is fearcly protective of the GPOs so i just stay away from them lately instead of starting fights

i don't know *

Izzy

6:03 PM

I'm so happy VMware View 4.5 is out

Izzy

6:16 PM

@Warner We'd be totally screwed without virtualisation

Josh

7:01 PM

Taking a quick break :-)

@KyleBrandt Damn, I want it to! :-)

@Warner We're a small shop, less than 10 full time employees

Izzy

@Josh we have a huge IS team here, but only about 10 people in infrastructure, supporting 1800+ virtual servers, and just recently 2000 virtual desktops

try supporting those numbers with just 10 people on a physical architecture

hence why I said we'd be screwed without virtualisation

Josh

@Izzy I'll bet!

I <3 Virtualization. :-)

Izzy

It's hilarious - well over 100 people in IS. 10% infrastructure, 90% applications/developers. Total joke

Zypher

@Izzy that sounds damn familiar

Izzy

I got bored with it as a concept, but VDI rekindled my interest

I'm pretty much done with technical work - I want out!

Warner

7:29 PM

That's normal. Properly run infrastructure should require less people unless it's a Windows intranet/helpdesk shop.

GregD

8:10 PM

Can a mod look at this user? serverfault.com/users/53830

he's spamming with islamic links

Josh

@GregD argh

I'll flag some

Zoredache

have you flagged his posts? If enough of us flag them, it will be handled automatically

GregD

I've flagged some of them

Josh

I just flagged them all

GregD

but i've reached my flag max apparently

Zoredache

8:13 PM

@KyleBrandt, are you active?

Josh

Thanks for the heads up @GregD

GregD

of course

Zoredache

most of hists posts have a count of 4-5 flags, After 6 the post disappears..

Josh

This earned me the "Citizen Patrol" badge :-)

Kyle Brandt

@Zoredache: On my way out the door .. whats up?

Josh

8:18 PM

عبدلله

1

Zoredache

That spammer, probably needs banning...

Josh

Many spam posts

Thanks @KyleBrandt!

Kyle Brandt

Suspended ... not sure how to go and delte everything

Will figure that out when I get back a few hours

Zoredache

they'll probably get flagged away by the crowd. I was just hoping you would keep any new posts from happening

Thanks

GregD

danke

Josh

8:22 PM

I asked The Tavern to flag

Kyle Brandt

Measures have been taken

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, bbl

Izzy

I blame Terry Jones

Josh

Later @KyleBrandt!

Zoredache

Terry Jones, for what?

Izzy

The Dove World Outreach Center pastor fool

Zypher

8:28 PM

cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/florida.quran.reaction

Zoredache

is that something from the news? I gnore the news

Izzy

Yep

Warner

How does that help your quality of life, @Zoredache?

Zypher

@Warner, i generally ignore most news too. Mostly because 90% of it is sensationalist BS

Josh

tough to find good news these days

I like the PBS NewsHour (here in the US)

Warner

8:34 PM

I've debating writing it off but I do like keeping in touch. Business news is especially important to me. Nevertheless, I think my quality of life would improve if I were to stop keeping up with it.

Izzy

I avoid TV news - tend to read the BBC news on my iPhone before I sleep

"We have over 250,000 apps in the App Store. We don't need any more Fart apps." - Finally

Zypher

well if you don't count the fart apps they only have over 150,000 apps

Josh

@Izzy LOL

Zoredache

@Warner, quite a bit I believe. If you ignore everything that isn't local, then it is a lot easier to be content

Izzy

Apples new App Store Review guidelines are pretty funny

John the Seagull

8:45 PM

need a recommendation of a quality ADSL router? I want to replace my crappy consumer level one (that I have at the office) with a decent one

Zypher

budget?

Josh

Good question @Zypher :-)

John the Seagull

I can probably convince my boss to spend about 500 US$

Izzy

9:00 PM

@JohntheSeagull what do you need it to do? VPN?

John the Seagull

not necessarily, although if I could get a VPN one for the budget I might look at it, mostly I'm interested in NAT that works and doesn't have to be rebooted twice a day to make it work again.

Izzy

There are a bunch of Cisco Small Business routers within that budget

Zypher

also do you need the actual ADSL modem built in or do you have a ADSL modem already

Josh

@Izzy Cisco RVS4000 is great, but I haven't used it with ADSL

Zypher

If you have a switch already the Cisco 800 ISR is at the top end of that but a nice option

Izzy

9:05 PM

the 800 <= $500?

John the Seagull

My current disaster is an ADSL modem router. I have it in bridge mode because I couldn't stand rebooting it twice a day. Now the Linux box I have it connected to to dial and route is giving problems with SSL (HTTPS connections usually fail). And I attribute it to the crappy router

Zypher

just barely

Izzy

nice

John the Seagull

so I want to ditch that

and get a new device, that will just work (tm)

Izzy

Well, you really can't go too far wrong with Cisco

Plus, learning IOS/PIX (or whatever they call the OS) is always handy

John the Seagull

9:07 PM

shudders

Zypher

gotcha ... well you can ask your privider for a modem only, and go with the Small Biz stuff, or if you can swing it an 800 Series ISR ... or it looks like the 500 Series secure router is also capable of using an xDSL WIC

John the Seagull

nice to know there are Ciscos for under 500

Zypher

(or whaterver they call it on that line)

John the Seagull

WIC?

Zypher

Wan Interface Card

John the Seagull

9:08 PM

that's an add on then

Zypher

doesn't appear to be on the lower end models ... one sec

cisco.com/en/US/products/ps9566/index.html

or

cisco.com/en/US/products/ps10514/index.html

or

cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/routers/ps9305/… (warning PDF)

quick google showed those two models to be 300-500 range

three not two*

John the Seagull

You can edit messages

thanks a bunch

for all that. Any other brand besides Cisco?

Zypher

hmm, maybe low end Juniper ... although i don't have any experience with thier stuff so i can't reccomend something

Izzy

Juniper makes my skin come out in hives, and my eyes sting, and my nose run

Zypher

lol

just giving the man options :)

Izzy

9:16 PM

Same with Citrix, and Database normalization

Josh

@Zypher itchy, eye-stinging nasal-flow-inducing options! :-)

Izzy

There's a special place in hell for Citrix administrators/evangelists

John the Seagull

Next door to Lotus Notes'

Zypher

What's wrong with Lotus Notes'? ducks

Izzy

Surreal - out of 49,987 questions on SF - only 95 are about Citrix? Is that because It Just Works (hahahaha) or because most organisations have more common sense than mine?

Zypher

9:19 PM

Probably just havn't attracted many hardcore citrix admins

yet

Izzy

/shudder

Zypher

stuffthathappens.com/blog/2008/03/05/simplicity

one of my favorites

can someone please just kill this question: serverfault.com/questions/179249/…

it just needs one more vote

Izzy